SESSION 2001/2002 FIRST REPORT
Ordered byThe Committee for Employment and Learningto be printed 20 September 2001
Report: 01/01 R (Committee for Employment and Learning)
COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING
VOLUME 3
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE RELATING TO THE REPORT
TABLE OF CONTENTS
VOLUME 3
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Construction Industry Training Board
Northern Ireland Textiles and Clothing Training Council
Northern Ireland Credit Accumulation and Transfer System
Northern Ireland Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment
Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts plc
Qualifications and Curriculum Authority
Galen Holdings Ltd
Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment -
Skills and Industry Division
Hastings Hotels Group
Northern Ireland Economic Council
Craigavon Borough Council
North American Coal Company Organisation
Moy Park Ltd
Letterkenny Institute of Technology
Women's Training Enterprise and Childcare
Newry & Mourne District Council
Forfás
Education & Training Inspectorate
Queen's University of Belfast
Northern Ireland Business Education Partnership
Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment -
Further Education and Learning Policy Division.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 8 February 2001
Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Mr Hay
Mr Hutchinson
Mrs Nelis
Witnesses:
Mr A McMullen)
Mr W Gillespie) Construction Industry Training Board
Mrs L Wallis)
1582.
The Chairperson:Thank you for attending and for providing the written submission on the workings of the training system. I am aware of the strategic importance of the construction sector. It is one of the largest sectors in the Northern Ireland economy and for some years it has been one of the most rapidly growing. The Committee is keen to hear your views on the skills' situation, the demand for labour and any shortages of labour. It will be interesting to hear your views on what the Assembly and the Higher andFurther Education, Training and Employment Committeecan do to deal with that situation.
1583.
Mr Gillespie:I will explain the Construction Industry Training Board's (CITB) position in relation to education and training and then my colleagues and I will endeavour to answer your questions.
1584.
CITB board members are accountable to the Minister who appointed them and to the construction employers within the scope of CITB who provide the money to fund its activities.
1585.
CITB is a statutory body tasked with ensuring adequate training for those working in, or intending towork in, the industry, which employs about 43,000people.We, as a board, have a budget of about £3million, 80%of which is raised by a statutory levy on employers.The balance is raised largely from the sale of our servicesto people who are not in the scope of the CITB. As a sector representative body the CITB is the recognised source for advising on and facilitating the training needs of the industry.
1586.
Over the years we have established strong linksand excellent working relationships with the Training andEmployment Agency (T&EA), which is our sponsoringGovernment Department, and also with the various national training construction organisations on matters of mutual interest. In addition, we are now members of the UK-wide forum for National Training Organisations(NTOs) in construction. In November2000 I attended my first meeting of that forum in London, and recently we had a joint meeting with Forás Áiseanna Saothair (FÁS), the construction industry training committee, inDublin. Our entire board met the entire committee in Dublin and we identified some areas of common interest, which we plan to address together.
1587.
We fully appreciate the co-operation of other organisations, and there is no doubt that the industry in general benefits from that sort of strategic link. We are currently addressing some priority issues on behalf of the industry which coincide, not surprisingly, with the focus of the Committee's inquiry into education and training. The issue of the funding and provision of new entrant training to meet industry's current and future needs is particularly highlighted at this time, as well as the issues of skills forecasting and skills and labourshortages, given NorthernIreland's unique haemorrhagingof craft skills across the border to the Republic.
1588.
Over the past fiveyears we have experienced an increase in the number of new entrants to the industry. The training network as a whole is currently recruiting 1,700young people annually into construction traineeships. However, the increased numbers coming into the system appear to concentrate on carpentry and joinery with the result that recruitment into otheroccupations,in particular wet trades such as bricklaying and plastering, is not meeting the industry's needs. That is resulting in severe shortages in these areas. The CITB estimates that it will need to recruit about 9,500new entrants over the next fiveyears to meet the industry's needs. We are actively considering how best this can be achieved in partnership with the Government and thefurther education sector. We believe that we must target not just school leavers but also older entrants who require retraining or reskilling. We are also activelyencouraging more young women to join the industry at all levels.
1589.
We need skills outside the traditional manual areas, for example, in supervision and management. Traditionally, the source for these occupations has been tradesmen. However, as the industry continues to fail to recruit sufficient numbers, the availability of experienced tradesmen to rise up the ladder will diminish. This has implications for the calibre of new recruits to the industry at supervisory and management level. They are now coming from the ranks of building and civil engineering graduates.
1590.
The CITB offers those graduates further training in management and other skills to prepare them for their tasks. As the sector representative body forconstruction, the CITB supports the industry's improvingits competitiveness by identifying and responding to the training needs of the workforce and by promoting best practice. Strategically, we will continue to be the focus for construction training by developing guidance for the industry and other training providers.
1591.
We are continually strengthening and developingour relationships with various awarding and lead bodies, Government Departments and the higher andfurther education sector to ensure that the training needsof the industry are considered and met.
1592.
If you are agreeable, Mr Chairman, I do not propose to go any further. Rather, my colleagues and I will endeavour to address any questions or comments that the Committee has.
1593.
The Chairperson:Thank you very much, Mr Gillespie. That was extremely helpful.
1594.
Mr R Hutchinson:In paragraph 2.2 of the documentyou gave us you said that finding a solutionto the problem of recruitment into the industry is difficult.What do you think are the major barriers to recruitment?
1595.
Mr McMullen:I think it is the image of theindustry. Construction is competing for young people andmany other industries are offering seemingly attractive jobs with softer skills. This is the main issue that the industry is facing.
1596.
Mr R Hutchinson:Do you have a problem withcareer officers in schools? Is there any difficulty there?
1597.
Mr McMullen:Not necessarily. We have a team of four careers people who work very closely with training providers, schools and colleges. We havea successful programme of job sampling, through whichwe encourage school children to come to our premises at Nutt's Corner, and we hold sessions at the schools. We have a good work relationship with them, and I do not think that we have any particular problem, but we are up against many other industries, and it is a very competitive market.
1598.
Mr R Hutchinson:But do you think careers teachers in schools are au fait with what the industry offers or the type of people it needs? Are they likely to point children in other directions, than the building industry?
1599.
Mr McMullen:I think you are right, yes. I thinkthat is the case.
1600.
Mr R Hutchinson:With regard to the shortfall of school leavers coming into the industry, is that not a problem that you need to deal with?
1601.
Mr McMullen:Yes, we do need to deal with that.I was suggesting that we are dealing with it in the way I have described.
1602.
Mr R Hutchinson:What plans do you have to deal with it?
1603.
Mr McMullen:Well, there is a lot more opportunity for colleges to work closely with the schools. We are working with several schools where fourth and fifthyear students now spend a day visiting colleges. Recentlywe spoke to St Peter's in the Creggan, an all-boys school, which has developed a programme through which about 30 boys in the fourth year spend three days a week at school, one day at the North West Institute and one day doing work experience. They are young kids, and there are problems with that. So we are working on a range of ideas with the colleges and schools. We also involve employers where we can. So there is a problem, but we feel that we are addressing that in partnership.
1604.
Mr Beggs:Bricklayers and plasterers are increasingly being valued financially by employers because their skills are scarce but in demand. Has the message got through to the schools and the children that good wages can be earned by learning these particular skills? I understand that in the past they may not have been as well paid as they are at the moment, but there is very good money to be made in bricklaying and plastering now. Are trainees or apprentices given sufficient wages to attract them? How long do they have to wait until better money becomes available?
1605.
Mr McMullen:There are two parts to your question. First of all, the message is beginning to getthrough. This year, recruitment is up across all the mainconstruction trades.
1606.
This year, just under 1,000 young people are training in joinery and carpentry. That is in the paper and was mentioned by Mr Gillespie in his introduction. This is a very good thing as they are very good, basic skills for construction. This year, we are only 30 or 40 people short of our projected target to meet the needs of the industry in bricklaying. You are right that bricklayers are getting a lot of money. One of the major problems is the work available in the South of Ireland at the moment. I was with my opposite numberin FÁS recently. FÁS has estimated that another 81,000people are needed in the construction industry over the next five years to meet the needs of the national development plan. The plan includes building approximately 60,000 new houses over the next five years. Last week, I was with my opposite number inGB. He estimates that 370,000 people are required there.When you add our 10,000 to that, it totals 460,000.
1607.
Under the current Jobskills training system, youngpeople have a non-employed status and get a £40 a week training allowance up to NVQ level 2. Theconstruction industry is losing good people to industriesthat are employing them from day one. One of our strategies is to encourage employers to work moretowards employer-led modern apprenticeships, employingyoung people from day one. We have been talking to the T&EA about developing a strategy to encouragethat over time. We believe that that is the answer. Youngpeople have to be employed from day one, because they are attracted by a job, not a training scheme.
1608.
Mr Beggs:I can understand why there are perhaps problems with bricklaying and plastering as it is heavy and wet work, and workers can be exposed to the elements. However, can you explain why there is a shortage in the areas of plumbing and electrical work?A reasonable level of technical skills is required in thoseareas, and there is certainly a huge potential for apprenticesto go on, after several years' experience, to set up their own businesses. Why are there these shortages? People should be queuing up to get in.
1609.
Mr McMullen:We cannot speak about the electrical sector as it is not within our scope. However, plumbing is within our scope. The shortage in all the trades these days has really been exaggerated by the boom in the South of Ireland. It was difficult for anyone to predict how incredibly successful that boomwould be, and the drain that there would be on resources in Northern Ireland. If it were not for that, wewould have met the needs of the industry in Northern Ireland. Last week in the South, they were telling me that plumbers and electricians are now ringing employers looking for jobs, so perhaps there is a little hiatus at the moment.
1610.
Mr Gillespie:Our experience is that there is not such a desperate shortage of plumbers. We have justcome from a meeting with our plumbing committee, andit is bang on its recruiting target for the current year. It identified the needs. Obviously there are sometimeslocal shortages, and ups and downs, but there is nothinglike the pressing problem that there is in the South.
1611.
Mr Byrne:I would like to welcome the CITB representatives. I want to know what the CITB has been doing about having better quality training for 16-year-olds who want to make a positive decision to enter the industry. I contend that the CITB has failed many young people. It has 63 staff and it should have been more proactive in the manpower planning for this industry. I want to know what you have to say about modern apprenticeships, and how much you have been involved in the designing and tailoring of these modern apprenticeships within the remit of the T& EA.
1612.
There is a crucial role to be played here for many young people if Northern Ireland's economy and the building industry take off. It is not good enough to say that we are losing people. We have always lostpeople to the construction industry in London, Scotlandand America.
1613.
Young people tell me that they cannot get on to a meaningful training course. They want to know where the apprenticeship is that they can join.
1614.
Mr McMullen:Mrs Wallis will take the questionon modern apprenticeship.
1615.
Mrs Wallis:Industry should be involved in the framework designed for modern apprenticeships and in the design of the standards for NVQ attainment. Since I took up my current post with the CITB two years ago, we have been facilitating industry and identifying exactly what its requirements are.
1616.
We are currently consulting with all the main representative bodies to find out to what extent the modern apprenticeship frameworks are relevant to the industries' and the sector's needs in Northern Ireland to use to benchmark against the standards coming from Great Britain from the national training organisation and the employers.
1617.
This role is a major part of the work, which my division, strategic planning and communications, is involved in at the moment. The frameworks should be designed by industry, for industry, to enable it to get the right calibre of young person, with the right qualifications, for its production needs.
1618.
I also want to touch on the point that you made about our role in ensuring better quality training fornew entrants. Since I became the head of the strategic planning and communications division in January 1999,we have worked very proactively and in partnership with the T&EA, the colleges of further and highereducation, the Association of Northern Ireland Collegesand some of the independent training providers.
1619.
Our aim was to look at standard patterns of training, which would best meet the industry's needs, rather than the training system itself, being an entity in its own right and not actually linked directly to the needs of the industry. Over the last 18 months, and indeed yesterday, we had a meeting with T&EA to see how we can make progress on that to make sure that the pattern of training is somehow standardised and that we have the sort of meaningful training programmes that young people have been asking you for.
1620.
There is always the issue of training for specialistoccupational areas for which there is little or no provision in Northern Ireland. That tends to be dealt with by the CITB in two ways. Through our direct training unit, and as a training provider of last resort,we run programmes for the specialist sector. More often,we link up in partnership with a training provider such as the Belfast Institute to run courses for the six or 10 young people that, for example, the roof slating and tiling sector needs to meet its specific requirements. That is a tailored programme with a framework.
1621.
Mr Gillespie:I have been in the building industry for 40 years. I recall the time when the apprenticeshipsystem was very simple. You went along, joined a company, spent five years there, maybe went to the technical college one day a week and got your City and Guilds certificate. That was a well-trodden path and a well-recognised way of achieving.
1622.
Nowadays, we are so hamstrung by funding mechanisms that instead of funding being tailored to suit the needs of the training, we are trying to skew thetraining to suit the funding. That is the wrong way round.
1623.
Mr McMullen:Mr Byrne has hit issues in a number of areas. We do not disagree with what you are saying at all. Over the last two or three years we haveendeavoured to address these issues. However, we have to bring the employers with us. It is our job to encouragethe adequate training of those in the industry and those intending to be employed in the industry.
1624.
I was a builder for 25 years and I remember the days when you took on an apprenticeship on day one, went to the technical college and did a City and Guildscertificate. Over the last 10 or 15 years, all that good workhas been dismantled. National Vocational Qualifications(NVQs) were introduced. They are bureaucratic; there are funding issues, and we could tell the Committee some horrendous tales about the quality of training.
1625.
The way forward is to work in partnership with the colleges. Although the training centres in Northern Ireland did a good job, particularly for the constructionindustry, a problem arose when the colleges were pittedagainst the training centres. In Omagh, for example, there was a training centre and a college. The college mayhave had half a class and the training centre half a class.Now there is the opportunity to run one good class of,for example, 20 bricklayers. The merger has been good.
1626.
The chairman of the board, senior staff and I have contacted all the college principals. We are going forward in partnership. We know that the entire system cannot be changed. Yesterday, however, we met Mr Tom Scott from the T&EA to examine ways by which to bring everyone involved closer together; to involve employers at an earlier stage; to make work experience meaningful; to integrate key skills with training; and toensure that the colleges are focused on practical training. The points that you raised are valid. We have workedexceptionally hard over the last couple of years. It takes a long time to achieve, but we are beginning to see light at the end of the tunnel - everyone is starting to work in the right direction.
1627.
I will finish on the point made about modern apprenticeships. It is an important issue. Without ashadow of a doubt, employer-led modern apprenticeshipsare the way forward.
1628.
Mr Byrne:I appreciate the honesty of your answers and the Committee is not in conflict with that.However, the Committee would like to see a stronger casemade for the type of modern apprenticeship required. Should it be three years long or should it comprise one year's in-training and two years on the job? Which isit? What standard of competency is needed, for example,after three years? My honest opinion, as someone who knows something about industry, is that it must be three years long. There must be lobbying to ensure that there is adequate funding support for those employers in the industry who want to take on trainees.
1629.
Mr Gillespie:We could give a good presentationon that very subject which would answer all the Committee's concerns. However, we cannot do that in the timescale available this afternoon.
1630.
The Chairperson:Maybe in the future.
1631.
Mr Dallat:Paragraph 5.8.3 states that there areno entry criteria for Jobskills and traineeships. Paragraph5.9 discusses key skills and suggests that they should be taught in school. How much time is taken up addressing skills, which should have been covered at school, but have not been? The Committee has focused on this. Evidence provided by other witnesses on basic literacy and numeracy has been disturbing. If there is a problem, tell us about it.
1632.
Mr McMullen:This is a vital point as well.There is no doubt that the modern apprenticeship requiresthese key skills. A good tradesman needs those key skills in order to do the job. We speak on behalf of theemployers, and they are disappointed that the 16-year-oldspresented to them do not already have these key skills. Training providers say that they have to use the funds available for apprenticeships to teach people skills that they should already have. The funding is not being used to teach practical skills.
1633.
Employers have told us that they want bricklayerson their sites who can lay one brick on top of another, and bricklayers are paid well to do that. Employers ask us if it is really necessary for bricklayers to be good at reading and writing. We reply that it is - they have to read plans and specifications. That is the dilemma. Colleges tell us that there is only so much money in the pot and only so many hours in the day and, therefore, they do not want to introduce entry criteria - although there are entry criteria for plumbers and electricians. Colleges would be in a better position to address key skills if we recommended that minimum entry criteria be introduced.
1634.
The head of our careers department, Mr John Gault, gave me this example. Imagine if you were in a class and a wee lad put his hand up and asked "Please sir, what exams do I need to become a bricklayer?" If the answer is "None", he will down tools at the age of 14 and do no more studying for two years. He will tell his parents that he does not need to do any studying or homework to become a tradesman.
1635.
So we want to say, for example, "We recommendthat you get a grade C at least." Our approach is to recommend rather than lay down the law. It is open access, and although everyone should be able to follow the trade he wants to, there has to be a balance. It is a matter of resources.
1636.
Mr Dallat:How much of your vocational training time is taken up dealing with basic skills - areas that should have been addressed already?
1637.
Mr McMullen:In "off the job" training, the trainers have to address the issues of practical skills,the underpinning of knowledge or theory, NVQ assessment, which is a horrendous bureaucratic nightmare,and now Key Skills. I would not be able to give you a percentage right away, but certainly there is conflict. The employers say that they want practical skills to be taught because that is what they will be paying people for. They understand that other skills are needed, but there is a conflict among the four areas in terms of the allocation of resources.
1638.
Mrs Carson:This is something dear to theCommittee's heart. I notice that page 8 of your brochure mentions facilities for new entrants, recruitment,retention, and teenagers being encouraged to stay on at school. What you have said has probably partly answered my question already. A lot of teenagers are being pushed into academic achievement, possibly beyond their capabilities. The other thing that Mr Gillespie spoke about was the issue of graduates. Were you talking about them turning to manual work or to industry?
1639.
Mr Gillespie:I was saying that, in the past, most of our people who became managers started off as tradesmen. Now because there is pressure on tradesmen, and also because they are so well paid, they do not want to be managers. Site managers now tend to be graduates, coming from university with a civil engineeringor building degree, and we at CITB try to boltsome practical training onto their academic knowledge in order to turn them into site managers.
1640.
Mrs Carson:So really the industry is losing out at that end by getting people coming in with "head knowledge" but no "hand knowledge"?
1641.
Mr Gillespie:Yes.
1642.
Mr McMullen:Yes, to a degree. There are some very good young graduates, both men and women.In fact I presented an Investors in People award last night to a construction company, and the principal of that company was complimenting a young graduate who had been with him for six months. He had a degree in building from the University of Ulster, and the company principal thanked the CITB because we had grant aided the year out for that student. The builder had taken that student on during his year out, and, on realising how good he was, employed him. We are trying to encourage that as a way for graduates to come through, which is beginning to work.
1643.
I will now return to the first part of your question about young people being encouraged to stayon at school. I was very concerned about that and recently visited a number of schools and spoke to principalsand vice-principals. They say that the pressure is coming from parents who are saying "We want them to go to university" and "Any course will do". Also, according to the principals, kids see construction as a hard, physical job, and children seem to be a bit softer these days, preferring keyboard skills to construction. So there is a job to be done in that respect.
1644.
However, we have some great successes in Northern Ireland. We recently had a carpenter who achieved a diploma of excellence in Montreal at theWorlds Skills Competition. His marks in carpentry werefourth in the world, so the system in Northern Ireland is producing very good kids. I know that the Chairman here has a particular interest in that area. It is not all about winning medals, but it shows that the young people of Northern Ireland, with the system here, are capable of achieving world-class skills. Our generalview is that the system needs tweaked, but it is not too bad.
1645.
The key resources in Northern Ireland for training young people are the instructors and lecturers in the colleges. They are the key people, and we havesome tremendous instructors and lecturers in Northern Ireland in all the colleges. People who formerly workedin training centres are now working in the colleges. That is the key resource. You can get a building or a shed anywhere, you can get some bricks, but it is more difficult to get instructors who have the desire and ability to teach.
1646.
Mrs Carson:You said in your key targets for last year and this year that you wanted to see a 10% increase in the number of women in the industry. Have you met, or will you meet, that target?
1647.
Mrs Wallis:Unfortunately, the industry at all levels - trade level and higher and further education level - has very small numbers of women. The Department issued some statistics recently for the last training year that showed that only 2% to 3% of the intake to higher and further education were female. For us to increase that by 10% would only require a couple more women on each programme, and it would be seen as a success.
1648.
In November 1999 we launched an initiative called "Women into Construction". It is an awareness initiative that is trying to say to young women in secondary schools that there are opportunities in areas such as painting and decorating, as well as in the technical and professional areas, that they can go into if they so wish. We are very much at the awareness stage, but we hope to build on that. We hope that the intakes in September 2001 will reflect the good work of our careers people in job sampling and career taster days in partnership with the colleges. I use the term "conversion rate". We want to convert that awareness and enthusiasm into actual participation in some of the programmes.
1649.
Mr McMullen:We have looked at this very carefully. There has to be a sense of realism. We had awomen's union committee with us recently, representinga group in west Belfast. We asked them what the issues were? Was it about welfare; strength; what? One of them gave a really good answer. She said "Have youever tried washing the dishes with a child in your arms?"In other words, the big barrier to women in constructionis not strength but male chauvinism. It is the attitude ofmen on sites that is the biggest barrier. It is hard enoughfor young men on sites. These guys are pretty macho men.That is the key problem. We have to be realistic about the problems.
1650.
Mrs Carson:So you have not achieved the 10% target?
1651.
Mrs Wallis:Realistically, we have not. It is muchtoo early in our initiative.
1652.
Mr Hay:Mr Byrne touched on a point that is fairly close to all our hearts. Bureaucracy has crept into the whole issue of training in Northern Ireland. Goneare the days when you did three or five years and producedsome of the best tradesmen that Northern Ireland eversaw. They did not just work here; they went further afield.
1653.
I know that you are not responsible for electrical engineering, but I know more about that than about any other subject. One thing that I have noticed, especially in relation to electrical engineering, and even in some plumbing companies, is that once the young chap or girl has completed his training, the issue arises of paying that young person the proper salary. I received a deputation of young people employed by bona fide companies in my city that would be vying for fairly major Government contracts; they are not obliged to pay a young person the required rate. That puts youngpeople off, and they look for another avenue in life, aftergoing through the training and getting the qualifications. Companies are not paying the proper salary yet they are getting millions of pounds worth of Government contracts.
1654.
I can name at least five or six bona fide electricalcompanies in my city that refuse to pay the rate. They are using unemployment in the city, because they know that a young person will find it difficult getting a job anywhere else after two or three years of an apprenticeship. They know the young person cannot leave and will have to stick with the firm. There are a few firms that pay the bona fide rate.
1655.
Payment of the bona fide salary rate is not enforced. This is a problem when a young person has decided on a career and finds himself squeezed by an employer who says "You can either work for me or go on the dole." The matter should be addressed across the industry. It is not happening in electrical engineering.Many young people say to me "I have gone through training, I have qualifications, I have been with the company for three years but I cannot get the salary to which I am entitled".
1656.
Mr Gillespie:I do not want to appear as though I am ducking this issue, but the CITB is not involved in setting or enforcing rates of wages. Our job is training. We look at the effect of pay on training, and we have been encouraging employers and unions, through their joint councils, to pay a decent rate of wages. Wages have risen considerably. In my experience, if I had not paid somebody at least the basic rate, I would have had no workers. The competition for employees in my area is such that nobody would work for me unless I paid at least the basic rate, and in most cases more. This problem that you have mentioned may be a local one, as it does not generally apply. We support paying the proper rate, and in most cases the trade unions have a remedy. There are six trade union representatives on our board, and they would be keen to learn of any employer who was not honouring wages and training contracts.
1657.
Mr McMullen:A typical Jobskills trainee leavesschool in June, goes on summer holiday for two months and then goes to a training provider on a Mondaymorning in September. He does a week of induction training, goes to the college for two or three days, and by the Wednesday or Thursday of the second week, he is out on work experience getting £40 a week plus a travel allowance. He works in this pattern for a while, but he is still only a schoolboy on a building site. The builder feels sorry for him and slips him £30. The boy has been in the industry for two weeks and he gets £30 in his back pocket, plus a £40 training allowance and possibly £20 travel expenses. That totals £90 a week.
1658.
He works like this until he gets NVQ level 2. Once he has NVQ level 2, he has to be employed. He goes back to the employer on Monday morning with the NVQ level 2 and says "I now have to be employed because I have NVQ level 2. I also want a rise because I am in my second year and have an NVQ level 2." The employer has to find perhaps £120 after paying the trainee £30 the previous Friday. This is a funding problem that we need to address.
1659.
Mrs Wallis and I met Mr Tom Scott of the T&EAyesterday to discuss the encouragement of employing trainees after at least 26 weeks. After the 26 weeks, the£40 training allowance becomes a grant that the employergets. The grant culture in Northern Ireland is one that we would not encourage, and we are trying to move away from it. The aim is to move employers back tothe days of employing trainees from at least their first day.
1660.
The other problem is that schoolboys and schoolgirls - schoolboys in particular, as I have previously mentioned - are going onto building sites with no skills. It is no wonder that employers are saying to us "These young people are hopeless. They have no tools or training, and they have been in college for only a week before they are allowed on the site to do work experience." We advocate - and we ask the Department to consider this - bringing young people into the construction industry from school and giving them six months solid training in order for them to learn the basic skills.
1661.
Employers will say at the end of the six months, "That young person has at least some basic skills, so we will pay him some money." They will pay them the recommended first-year wage. It would be good if they could get financial assistance for on-the-job training, but at least they will be productive. However, as school children on work experience, which is all they currently are -
1662.
Mr Hay:Training at the moment is driven too much by finances.
1663.
The Chairperson:We have the next set of witnesses waiting outside. I have two more people to ask questions, Mrs Nelis and Mr Carrick. Can you make your questions as short as possible?
1664.
Mrs Nelis:Yes. I shall not go into any preamble,though I could, for we have not talked about hairdressers,only about plumbers and so on, and there is a gender problem. I wish to talk about assessment, as it is important and you give a great deal of attention to it. You are concerned about the risk that candidates who have been awarded NVQs may not be competent to fulfil the needs of industry. What is your primary concern in that respect? Do you feel the issue will be addressed by the absorption of the training centres into the further-education colleges?
1665.
Mr McMullen:First, young people are assessed at NVQ level 2. Industry's expectations of NVQ level 2 people are too high, for they take them for the finished product. I remember the five-year apprenticeship. There is a perception in industry,because of excessive expectations, that they are not competent.
1666.
City and Guilds, as part of the awarding body, says that assessment should be more work-based andthat employers must take more responsibility. Ultimately,it is the employers who say who is competent. We have set standards through the NVQs and assess young people in accordance with them. Employers must take more responsibility for assessment rather than leave it to the colleges. Partnership is perhaps the way forward, but employers are reluctant to take that route, for it is a costly and bureaucratic exercise.
1667.
Mrs Nelis:May I ask you very quickly -
1668.
The Chairperson:Sorry, Mrs Nelis. We mustmove on. Mr Carrick's question will have to be the last.
1669.
Mr Carrick:I was very taken by MrGillespie's summary of how he views the situation throughpersonal experience, and I empathise with that. It seemsto be a question of access. What are your views on the progression from education, through training, toindustry? Are you content, for instance, with the educationcurriculum? Does it properly address the issues you face in your industry?
1670.
You also mentioned the quality of training, with which you seem to be fairly content - the quality that would be available if you could get the young people and secure access to it. Would you like to comment on that progression?
1671.
Mr McMullen:I am happy to answer that. You ask if the education system is producing the people that we want. I do not believe it is. Too high a percentagecannot read, write, or count, and they are not academically minded. We say that they switched off at the age of 14 when they realised they were not going down the academic route. That is why we recommend that they work a little harder at school. The education system is not producing quality young people for us, measured against very basic academic skills.
1672.
Mr Carrick:Is that a weakness in the curriculum?
1673.
Mr McMullen:I do not feel qualified to comment.
1674.
Mr Gillespie:We know of the many pressures on the education system, from which everyone wants more. One reads that there is to be more road-safety training and so on. We do not wish to venture into saying yet more should be packed into the curriculum.
1675.
Mr McMullen:We all want young people educated as broadly as possible. However, employers in Northern Ireland do not need bricklayers who speak French.
1676.
Mr Beggs:Has the modern apprenticeship pilot increased young people's motivation?
1677.
Mr McMullen:Absolutely.
1678.
The Chairperson:On behalf of the Committee, I should like to thank you, Mr McMullen, Mr Gillespie and Mrs Wallis, for spending your time with us this afternoon and, indeed, for the written submission, which we shall look at carefully as part of the overallinquiry. You have struck many chords this afternoon, particularly when you said the funding system should serverather than distort training needs. That is certainly a powerful message, and we shall take it on board.
1679.
Thank you very much. We wish you well in your continued work.
1680.
Mr Gillespie:May I make a few points? There is some good news. In March, we have our Northern Ireland regional skills competition in Newry under the aegis of the Newry and Kilkeel Institute. This is a regional competition, the winners of which go forward to a national competition. Winners at national level then go forward to an international competition. This year, we have two people from Northern Ireland going to Korea to represent the UK.
1681.
Further to that, we have succeeded in getting the UK competition to come to Ballymena from 5 June to 7 June. I strongly recommend any member of the Committee who is interested in seeing good craftsmenunder training to visit one or both of those competitions.You will be amazed when you see the standard of work.
1682.
Finally, we have touched on a number of points today which we have only been able to answer partly. We would love the Committee to come to Nutt'sCorner. We could provide accommodation for a meeting,give you a short presentation on what CITB does and answer a number of the questions raised today in more detail.
1683.
The Chairperson:Thank you. We welcome that invitation.
1684.
Mr R Hutchinson:Can you send us the information on Newry and Ballymena?
1685.
The Chairperson:Thank you. Congratulations to those who have succeeded in that way.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 8 February 2001
Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Mr Hay
Mr R Hutchinson
Ms McWilliams
Mrs Nelis
Witnesses:
Prof B Hill)
Mr D Lamont) Northern Ireland Textiles and
Mr A Elliott) Clothing Training Council
Mr P Frazer)
1686.
The Chairperson:You are welcome to the Committee session. Robin Newton, Clare Ennis and Michael Harris have accompanied the witnesses.
1687.
Thank you for the written submission on the clothing sector and the Committee has noted the Kurt Salmon study and report on what might be done for the future of that sector.
1688.
Mr Lamont:Gordon Parkes, the chairman of the Textiles and Clothing Training Council, is unable to attend today due to a prior commitment, but he would like his apology recorded.
1689.
Prof Hill:The report submitted to the Department of Higher and Further Education, Trainingand Employment dated 15 November was compiled frominformation from industry and academia. The NorthernIreland Textiles and Clothing Training Council (NITC²)is the representative body recognised by the Governmentas the training and education voice of the textileindustry. Its members are representative of the various sectors with an interest in the well-being of the industry.The board's directors are from the industry, education and trade unions, and the organisation is a company limited by guarantee.
1690.
I am glad that the Chairperson recognises the importance of the textile industry, which currently employs 18,000 people and has a turnover of £944million. Textiles account for 20% of all Northern Irelandexports so it is a major contributor to the economy. The ethos of the report, not surprisingly, is endorsed by the recent Kurt Salmon report, which was commissioned by the IDB and launched by the Enterprise, Trade and Investment Minister, Sir Reg Empey, on 21 January.
1691.
As all Committee members have a copy of the report I will not repeat what it contains. Rather, I will update the information, indicating what has happened in the last two and a half months and expand on some of the information in the report.
1692.
In development initiatives and training, in appendix 1, the objective of NITC² to become a memberof the National Textiles Training Organisation (NTTO) and becoming involved with the Clothing and AlliedProducts Industry Training Board (CAPITB) is described.Those objectives have been met under improved existingtraining. We have investigated and analysed the educationand training developments, and from the list of programmes that we are currently running you will see that that has taken place.
1693.
The column dealing with the marketing and selling of programmes describes how NITC² developedstrong links with the Training and Employment Agencyand the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment. The column dealing with how NITC² developed partnerships with relevant organisations shows that we do meet with the SDC, the TI and the other boards.
1694.
The final heading shows that NITC² has strong links with the universities. Not only do we have links with universities here but a delegation from NITC² hasgone to the University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology (UMIST) and the Bolton Institute, which are strong textile institutions. Representativesfrom the Bolton Institute have already been back to talk to us. By the constitution of the committee we have strong links with the University of Ulster, through myself, and the Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education (BIFHE).
1695.
Appendix 3 shows a list of programmes providedby the NITC². The management development programmewas launched last November but it started on Tuesday with 14 delegates and the first half-day meeting hasbeen held. The senior management strategic programmehas an agreed budget of £25,000.
1696.
The brand imaging and logistics programmes are ready to go to tender. An agreement to deliver in-company learning facilitators has been signed by NITC² and the agency.
1697.
There is no National Vocational Qualification level 4, building on levels 1 and 2, and on level 3 for manufacturing textiles. There has been a need for that and is now being developed.
1698.
The textile awareness for middle management and supervisors is a new development in the last two and a half months, and a series of half-day seminars isbeing developed for that. The graduate design conversionprogramme has been taken forward and we now have adraft proposal. We are moving on with the programmesthat have been listed in the report, and other new ones.
1699.
In appendix 4 of the report we show the training needs of different companies. Companies are asking if there is a need for in-house training. This is typical of a sector made up of many small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs), with definite but disparate needs. In many cases the companies have minimal personnel, and cannot afford time for people to travel overseas. There are obviously common needs in IT, but thecouncil is examining how the various needs of differentcompanies can be met in a cost-effective and efficient manner. A grouping has been developed to help, under the working title of "The Threadbare Group". This is a team of well-qualified and experienced technologists and human resource personnel, and they are addressing how best to transfer the vast amount of knowledge inthe industry at the minute, to the greater good of the sector.
1700.
I want to talk about the Kurt Salmon report, relating to technological innovation. There are two points to discuss. One is body scanning, something that could be useful to the industry and has links with American practices. There is also a grouping in Nottingham Trent University, under Prof Stephen Gray and we already have links with him. The other area is a computerised design and sampling facility. We are looking at establishing such a facility within the sector. To create such a resource is going to cost around £75,000, and we are looking at ways of getting funding to raise that.
1701.
Mr Hay:Your council does a lot of good workin training in the clothing industry generally in Northern Ireland. The industry has gone through a difficultperiod over the last number of years, right across NorthernIreland. Cheap imports have been continually coming into Northern Ireland. Companies also decide to set up overseas for cheap labour, sometimes to the great annoyance of the local labour force. How do you continue to address that, as that situation will get worse rather than better? While there may be no way to stop that practice, can anything be done to slow it down?
1702.
Mr Lamont:Obviously every company must have its own individual solution, but there are companies in the sector who most definitely see the threat - a very large threat. You are quite right in assuming that the threat is going to get larger. This year will see the end of the multifibre agreement, and,certainly, next year's quotas will be all but meaningless. There has been a seismic change - cheap imports are a big problem undoubtedly.
1703.
In the KSA Report, the IDB initiated document, they make play on Kurt Salmon's recommendation that there could perhaps be a role in using a strategic alliance in an area. With a disparity in labour rates of 80%, one just cannot compete on a head-to-head basis.You can maybe do something with a 2% to 5% disparity,otherwise it is just no contest.
1704.
In fact, Kurt Salmon has identified that strategic alliance may be the way forward. Desmonds in Derry, have used that to their advantage. Inside their own operation they have tried to identify those systems which are appropriate to Northern Ireland - fast response or high margin goods, which can still continue to be made in Northern Ireland, albeit with a bit more capital investment. However, 50% of their output now is actually manufactured abroad.
1705.
The answer probably lies in trying to meld with the problem, bend with the breeze rather than try to stand against it, because frankly it is a losing battle.
1706.
Mrs Carson:Has the industry an image problem,and how can it be redressed? How can we help you?
1707.
Mr Lamont:The industry would accept it has an image problem, but I have got to say, as you would expect me to, it is an ill-deserved image problem. It is one that perhaps has its roots and traditions in dark mills and bare-footed children. Things are slightly different now. Companies have most definitely moved with the times. Through the work of the Training Council, we have tried to put in place training schemes which offer opportunities to the industry.
1708.
Also there are other things that must be addressed. You have got to show people what you are doing. Our sister organisation, the Northern Ireland Textile Association, (NITA) is addressing that through its work with schools. Public money is used as some of those schemes are run by Growth Challenge. Money is being spent to get the message across, appearance at career fairs and things like this, but it is a difficult problem. Once these things get ingrained in peoples' consciousness it is very difficult to change it. There are companies who would love to know the answer to be perfectly frank. It is a difficult question.
1709.
Prof Hill:We have world-class companies in Northern Ireland, there is no question of that. The problem is that we do not sing enough about them. We sing about the closures and this helps create the image of a dying industry, which obviously it is not. This is where help would be welcome. Sing the praises of the companies, say that we are a vibrant industry.
1710.
Ms Carson:Is that where the Committee, or the Assembly could help you?
1711.
Mr Lamont:To be honest the problem is verydifficult to crack. Every night you read in the newspaperthat another textile company has closed. There would be few people encouraging children to go into the industry at present. I wish I had the answer. Apart from trying to get the message across in the ways described, and working with the schools directly to encourage children to think about the clothing and textile industry as a career, I really am not sure of the answer.
1712.
Mr Frazer:One vehicle we have for communication is our sister organisation, NITA's newspaper, 'Cutting Edge'. It would help if we could circulate the paper more widely to schools. It tells of the success stories in the clothing and textile industry. The paper is under threat financially and we need to continue it because it is really our only way of communicating with the general public.
1713.
Mr R Hutchinson:Are the jobs normally quite low paid jobs? Is that a problem?
1714.
Mr Lamont:No, again that is a traditional perception. The trade has obviously had to come to grips with the minimum wage regulations, but very few companies would have actually had to take action to comply with those. I do not want to give you the idea that jobs are very well paid, but they do not, by any means, come towards the bottom of the tree, which most people would expect.
1715.
Building on from what the report would suggest, a different breed of job is coming through now. It is a more high calibre job in terms of logistics and picking up strategic alliances. For example, if some of a firm's production is to be located in the more remote corners of the world, then it would need people to handle that. There would be the need for higher calibre jobs, not necessarily in production, but in, as I say, areas such as logistics and contract management. A different type of person with a higher calibre of education will be needed to do such jobs. The scenery is changing as we speak. There is no doubt about that.
1716.
Mr Byrne:Of all of the delegations we have had, your industry is probably the one that is under the greatest threat. Obviously, certain parts of the world have got a high fashion textile image, Italy being one of them. I would like to ask Prof Hill if he sees any future in Northern Ireland trying to develop some sort of higher value added textile industry. Are we still only producing textiles at a particular stage in the cycle andis there any co-ordination between research, development,design, and marketing? Have we only been nipping into a particular segment of a particular industry, and has it purely been in the production segment, where the margins have always been traditionally very thin?
1717.
Finally, textiles are very important to those of us who come from the north-west. Desmonds have a factory in Omagh and they employ about 500 people. They have another factory called Naturelle in Omagh, which employs 200 people. Herdmans, in Sion Mills,employs 1,200 while Adria, in Strabane, employs1,000. Please forgive me for being particularly concernedabout the whole state of the industry and its implicationsforemployment. How much co-ordination is there betweenthe textile employers? Is there a proper forum, or do they go their own ways, and as a result do not benefit from the sort of cluster type synergy, which applies to the other industries we heard about earlier?
1718.
Prof Hill:There is a great deal of that. I shalltalk about the design element. We have higher value-addedproducts in Northern Ireland and world-class companiesin the clothing sector. It is vitally important that we talk about these companies and let the big, bad world know that they are out there and doing things. We can improve and broaden our base, and that will be part and parcel of the work of the training council. We must build on the companies we have.
1719.
Mr Byrne:Do you only have desktop design in your university faculty, or must we develop a stronger faculty of textiles covering production, design and marketing?
1720.
Prof Hill:The school of textiles and fashion design is in the faculty of art and design. I am a textile technologist, and part of my role is to teach the technology to textile design students, so they spend part of their time studying technology. As far as textile technology per se is concerned, there is only limited teaching - not only in Northern Ireland, but in Ireland as a whole. This is something which we are trying to address by looking at the colleges and universities in England, examining ways to link up with them and from that source find the technologists of the future forus to train. It may always be difficult to persuade enoughorganisations to run courses in textile technology in the Northern Ireland further and higher education system.
1721.
Mr Lamont:I should like to build on that andaddress certain points not covered in Prof Hill's answer.The major players in Northern Ireland are large, world-class companies, and you mentioned a number. One of the difficulties for the sector is that there is a great raft of companies of modest size, and therefore modest means. They are probably under the greatest threat. Companies such as Herdmans Ltd and Desmond & Sons Ltd are sufficiently large to make their way, but the smaller companies can be a problem. They represent a particular task for the council.
1722.
We have a healthy trade organisation. In the first stage it was the Central Council for the Linen Industry, before widening its remit to become the Northern Ireland Textile Association. Under that umbrella, there is an entire satellite network of committees, sub-committees and other associated bodies linked through NITA to provide some form of co-ordination. It could always be improved, but I would not underestimate the present degree of co-operation. The Northern Ireland Textile and Clothing Training Council is both formally and informally linked to NITA. Therefore, if we have a problem which goes beyond training, we can link to whatever is appropriate through NITA. The image would be linked to training in particular.
1723.
Mrs Nelis:I worked in a shirt factory in myearly life. The shirt industry was the economic backboneof Derry, where I come from, for 100 years, and itsdecline has had a dramatic effect on the city's economy.
1724.
Even when people diverted into other aspects of the textile industry, it did not work. In the last few years we have had about 3,000 job losses in the manufacture of shirts, jeans, underwear, uniforms - all women-centred, of course. I am sure you are well versed in this. I, as an elected representative, was bitterly disappointed that our Government did not give the attention it should have given to trying to supportwhat are euphemistically called "the traditional industries".
1725.
With regard to the Jutland study, had the Government done what the Danish Economic Minister did whenfaced with the same problem in Denmark, do you feelthat the situation would perhaps have been turned round?
1726.
What is your opinion on the craft industry, which is recognised worldwide but not given support?
1727.
Mr Lamont:Concerning craft industries, the problem is that they are small-scale. They are normally individuals working in isolation. It is difficult to envisage so many individuals coming together to make an industry. I am conscious of so many jobs having been lost in Derry, but if you went down a craft route you would replace only a tiny minority of those. There is always a place for craft, but the answer to our problem does not lie in that area.
1728.
Mrs Nelis:I did not suggest that.
1729.
Mr Lamont:I appreciate that. The Jutland study is interesting, and there are lessons to be learnt, but I believe they are not immediately applicable to Northern Ireland. Jutland has some advantages overNorthern Ireland. There is a land bridge into Europe. Thereare some very major and affluent countries connecting onto Jutland, which are looking for high-quality merchandise. Northern Ireland is a country on the periphery, and there are two stretches of water to crossbefore reaching Europe. There are difficulties. Transportand our own sense of remoteness probably add to those difficulties.
1730.
One area touched on in this report, is the obviousapplication of the new electronic links. We can use those to try and jump distances, to become a little bit more connected to the market place and to the strategic alliance partners with which one might form up. There are some solutions, but one cannot adopt a laissez-faire attitude. There are interesting lessons to be learnt, butno easy solutions to be found with the Jutland experiment.
1731.
Mr Dallat:In your submission you say that the textile and clothing industry needs to survive. You go on to suggest that there is a need to establish stronger and more efficient supply chains. Perhaps you would tell us a bit more about current difficulties? Large retail multiples have the power to kill industry stone dead, as they have done with the bread industry and various others. Could you suggest what their role is, other than to make huge profits?
1732.
Mr Lamont:The quick answer is that we are all culpable. It is too easy to point the finger at the large multiples; it is really their customers - and we are all customers of them. I do not want to embarrass anyonehere by asking them where their shirt or jacket came from.
1733.
Mr Byrne:If we want the textile industry to survive it has got to have a value-added brand and a marketing image. Young people will pay enormous sums of money for a branded product.
1734.
Mr Dallat:Bearing in mind the things Mr Byrnementioned, surely there is a great onus on large retailers, who are benefiting from profits, to be locked into the industry in the same way as the pharmaceutical industry and others are.
1735.
Prof Hill:Manufacturers are generating the research and development going on in our university at present. It is not being generated by the supply end.
1736.
Mr Beggs:Is there any merit in further educationcolleges taking the lead role with a degree of learndirect, so that some distance learning and an occasionalcoming together could take place in the industry?
1737.
Mr Lamont:That is happening, and we should not undersell what we are actually doing. One of the difficulties, and perhaps Prof Hill is more qualified to say this than myself, from an employer's point of view, is that the halcyon days when we would have 20 or 30 students in the technical college waiting to be told about textiles have long since past. The requirement now is for a company to train one or two people in key positions.
1738.
From a purely commercial perspective, universities and further education colleges are being told to becomeprofit orientated and self-sustaining. They cannot affordto run courses for one person. So, we are looking for new forms of education and training such as distance learning packages. That is why it is so important for us to link up with other centres of excellence and use a network approach. We can learn from places such as Bolton and the University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology. We could use a satellite organisation as the provider here, and the student could then go on to those centres of excellence for particularspecialities. For that reason, the whole idea of educationand training is changing. We are looking at much more individually tailored packages, because numbers of students are not being generated.
1739.
Prof Hill:We talked about the halcyon days, and I was educated in textiles during that time. I was in a large class, and five of us went on to do a textile degree. Those days no longer apply as far as further and higher education is concerned.
1740.
The Chairperson:I am pleased that you are not only concerned with training at the shop floor level but at management level also. I am sure that in the clothing and textiles sector - and no doubt it came out in the Kurt Salmon study - change in management culture will be as important as change at shop floor level.
1741.
In returning to Mr Dallat's question about theimpact of the purchasing pattern of major multiple stores, there is a question of management strategy andmanagement training. Why did Northern Ireland clothing companies become almost totally, and in some cases totally, dependent on, for example, Marks and Spencers?Trainingwill be necessary to ensure that companies do not becomedependent on one source, or market, in the future.
1742.
Mr Lamont:I have no remit for Desmonds, but it made a strategic decision and was well aware that it obviously exposed them in one sense. At the same time, even with hindsight, it has proved to be a winningstrategy. Look at the size that Desmonds has grown to. We hope that if we can manage this change, makingsure that management is open to change and knows how to handle it because these are turbulent waters, thenDesmonds will continue using the methods it has adopted,to survive and thrive.
1743.
The Chairperson:It worked for Desmonds, butit did not work for other companies and it is the balanceof the economy that we are looking at. Thank you verymuch, your presentation has been fascinating. Also, thankyou for your written submission, we will pay carefulattention to it. Clearly you are set for 18,000 employees.It is too large to be ignored because whatever happens in your sector has a major impact on the rest of the economy. We wish you well in your work and thank you very much for coming.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
15 February 2001
Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Mr R Hutchinson
Mr J Kelly
Ms McWilliams
Mrs Nelis
Witnesses:
Prof P Roebuck)
Dr C Egerton)Northern Ireland CreditMs D Patton)Accumulation and Transfer System
1744.
The Chairperson:I welcome the representativesfrom the Northern Ireland Credit Accumulation and Transfer System (NICATS) and thank them for the background papers that they have supplied to the Committee.
1745.
The Committee is keen to hear more about the progress of the accumulation credit system and its impact on the training and accreditation system in the Province.
1746.
Prof Roebuck:NICATS is grateful to the Committee for the opportunity to give evidence. It is hoped that it will be valuable to us and to you. Monica Deasy, director of NICATS, is on sick leave, so the two assistant directors are with me today.
1747.
As well as the briefing paper, you should have a copy of the NICATS response to the Programme for Government and copies of my presentation.
1748.
NICATS allows all learner achievement, even small amounts, to be recorded and recognised. Theintroduction of Curriculum 2000 requires qualifications to be unitised, and in that is a recognition that learning needs should be accredited in smaller blocks. The NICATS project ran from 1996 to 1999, and it was funded by the Department of Education for NorthernIreland (DENI). The recommendations of the project were accepted, and the Department decided that NICATS should become part of the Government's overall plan for the encouragement of lifelong learning.
1749.
An implementation committee was set up in 1999. Its objectives were to establish a central unit, thatnow exists in York Street in Belfast; develop a credit framework in collaboration with other interested parties; provide staff development to support that framework; generate links with a variety of bodies in Northern Ireland and elsewhere in these islands and Europe; andto develop a database and design a credit transcript, both of which will powerfully underpin NICATS operations.
1750.
It is funded by the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment, which sees it as central to the lifelong learning policy. I am chairperson of the implementation committee, and on it are representatives from all the major stakeholders in Northern Ireland and beyond. We work closely with a number of other credit agencies in these islands, and we are learning from them.
1751.
This may sound pompous, but in Northern Ireland, we are ahead of the game. No other credit organisation has made as much progress as ours has over recent years.
1752.
I am sure that you will want to know why NICATS is important to education and training in the Province. I have plucked out a number of words andphrases from the Programme for Government. Those words not only underpin the Programme for Government but also the NICATS agenda.
1753.
I want to look at a few of those phrases and explain briefly why NICATS is going to promote them. First, NICATS sets out to motivate people to take up learning by offering learning in smaller blocks and giving it credit immediately and clearly. This will make learning opportunities more accessible to a widerrange of people than take advantage of those opportunitiesat the moment. In other words, we want to make lifelong learning a reality. All achievement will be recognisedand recorded on a personal transcript. Learners can build credit towards further study if they wish. That system will make it much easier for them to study when, where and at the sort of pace which suits them.
1754.
With regard to equality, NICATS will provide a common language for recording learning. That will help to establish parity of esteem between a variety of different qualifications, something which is missing at the moment. With regard to skilling, NICATS willenable employers to respond much more rapidly to training needs. Learners will be able to claim recognitionfor the learning that they have achieved. Programmes dealt with in this way will positively contribute to the various targets set by the Government. NICATS will untap the potential of individuals by engaging them in learning, increasing their motivation and, perhaps above all, by taking the fear out of education by offering an alternative to the traditional linear process of learning.
1755.
NICATS will help to make that decisive shift from education for employment on the one hand to education for employability on the other. In other words,we will not be educating people to do a particular job. We will be developing a wide range of their abilities to do a variety of jobs throughout their working life. NICATS will facilitate this by providing an adaptable and flexible system. People will be able to take short, relevant credit-based programmes. This will encourage the culture of lifelong learning, and it will enable employers to go about their training in a more focused and cost-effective way. We will help to raise standards by encouraging all stakeholders to adhere to the principles and guidelines of NICATS. That will ensure standards.
1756.
The facilities which we will provide will allow programmes to be much more carefully tailored tomeet market needs. NICATS programmes can be regularlyupdated, so curricula will not easily get out of date. Standards will be raised by making learning achievementmuch more explicit. Learners will know exactly what is expected of them. Employers will know what people have achieved up to a certain point. Their progressionroutes can be made more transparent, and new pathways can be created for them. With regard to implementation,we are working across the UnitedKingdom with other partners in the Credit Equivalence Project. We are very closely involved in the FE sector/NICATS in the Access Curriculum Development Project whereby all 39Access courses throughout NorthernIreland will have common modules and will, therefore, work to the same standards and objectives.
1757.
We are very involved in the development of foundation degrees. We are embedding NICATS in thehigher education sector through participation in the Quality Assurance Agency's quality agenda. We are collaborating with other credit agencies throughout theseislands, and we are producing a manual on credit-based learning.
1758.
We are on the verge of launching our web site, which will be important in promoting NICATSregionally and nationally. We will have a database of units which will help practitioners to devise programmesof learning to NICATS specifications. A transcript will be developed to record individual learner achievement. That is our agenda, and we would be delighted to answer any of your questions.
1759.
The Chairperson:Thank you for an extremely concise and useful summary.
1760.
Mr Beggs:The concept of encouraging people to take smaller bites at education and build on those, rather than be put off by daunting high goals, is excellent and must be encouraged. I like the concept ofa credit accumulation scheme. Can you give us examplesof how that would work in practice as regards higherand further education? It appears to be quite theoretical. How would it encourage people to adopt higher standards of education and thus help the economy?
1761.
Prof Roebuck:My colleagues can talk about the community and voluntary sector and about access. However, I will begin by giving an example. I have been involved in higher education for 30 years. Frequently, people have to drop out of education, or they have to change institutions for a variety of domestic and personal reasons. In other words there is some break in their education programme. Until now, most cases have been dealt with on a purely individual basis. If a person drops out a quarter of the way through the second year of a course and has to move to another institution for family reasons, they would often go back to the beginning of the second year, and time and money are wasted.
1762.
NICATS will record the level of their achievementin terms of credit as they move through a course, and all of the stakeholders in the system will recognise our transcripts and our database. This will mean that whenlife-changes interfere with people's educational progress,they can move on more quickly and effectively, albeit in a different place.
1763.
Dr Egerton:The community and voluntary sectors are represented by Annie Moore of the NorthernIreland Open College Network, who is a member of our implementation committee. The Open College Network accredits non-formal learning, for example, learning that can be taken in small steps. It gives people who have not been involved in learning the chance to engage with education and build up to more formal qualifications.
1764.
It is very important that NICATS embraces such work and that it all comes under the same framework. It is also very important that all learning, whether formal or not, is recognised within that framework, so as to allow people to progress. The model tries to bring transparency to learning in that it is based on learning outcomes and assessment criteria. It is also transparent in that we will have a common language for describing learning, which learners and employers will understand and so be able to compare what has been achieved.
1765.
To assist us, we are involved in a process, involving all of the sectors, of putting together a manual on the credit-based approach to learning.
1766.
Ms Patton:I can best answer the question as regardsstandards and retention. We are working with 39 Access to Higher Education courses throughout NorthernIreland. Access to Higher Education programmes are really directed at adults who have few, if any, qualifications.They are one of their main routes into higher education.
1767.
At the moment, all 39 Access courses are offered through 19 centres. Although all of the courses have the common core of numeracy, communication, IT and study skills, the 19 centres are doing 19 different things, more or less, so part of our project will be to have the 19 centres doing the same thing as far as possible, and as far as is educationally practical and feasible.
1768.
We are intending to develop core modules in maths, communication, IT and study skills that are used by those courses. We see benefits in doing that.
1769.
Although you get mature students going into higher education programmes, the problem is that there is a very high drop-out rate within a few weeks of their starting. That happens for a variety of reasons, but mostly for financial reasons, family or other personal commitments. They simply cannot stay the course. Many drop out and think that it is another failure and that they have wasted their time.
1770.
These Access courses will be based on a series of modules for which students will receive immediate credit once a module is completed. If they have to drop out for some reason, they go away with their creditrecorded on a transcript. They do not go away as failures but as having credit recorded in their transcripts' bank account, so to speak.
1771.
We came across some research by people at the University of Derby, where they operate such a credit system. They found that although they still have a 20% drop-out rate in the first few weeks of an Access course, 60% of the drop-outs who leave with some credits for what they have achieved come back and complete their studies within two years. This research is showing that a credit-based approach to learning can work.
1772.
Mr Beggs:What is the continuation study rate for those who drop out of studies in Northern Ireland? How many of those who drop out of the Northern Ireland universities subsequently come back and complete their studies?
1773.
Ms Patton:I do not have any information on that.
1774.
Prof Roebuck:There is no systematic work being done on that. We strongly suspect that the drop-out rate is quite high in pre-HE Access courses.
1775.
Mr Dallat:Professor Roebuck's contribution to lifelong learning is well recognised. We want to make best use of his time. One of the problems in the North and the South was the acceptability of qualifications in both jurisdictions, and membership of the European Union has at least forced some of the institutions to address that problem. Nevertheless, there is still a horrendous problem for many of the people that you are focusing on. Is there anything an organisation can do to widen access and, at the same time, prevent exit?
1776.
Prof Roebuck:I am very happy to give you a positive response to your first point. It is very important that NICATS articulates effectively, not just with stakeholders in Northern Ireland, but with other credit systems throughout these islands and further afield. For example, we are watching ECTS (European Credit Transfer System) in continental Europe very carefully, and we are in touch with many of the credit agencies in Britain.
1777.
With regard to the South, when our project report was published in 1999, I arranged for it to be distributed widely in the Republic. As a result of that, the committee of university registrars in the Republic came up North, and I gave them a presentation on it. Monica Deasy, the director, and I went down to Dublin to give a presentation to a larger group of people. Since then, we have begun to get traffic from individual institutions and teachers.
1778.
That is under way, and we are pleased with the progress that has been made on that front. Would you repeat the second part of your question?
1779.
Mr Dallat:You are encouraging access as far as possible. Can you discourage exit?
1780.
Prof Roebuck:Quite apart from the specific Access programmes, the best we are going to achieve here is twofold. A great deal of learning goes on in the community and the voluntary sectors, but it is done in small chunks, at levels that remain unconnected with the main educational system.
1781.
One of our chief functions is to gather that learning, to accredit it and to link it on, not to a "ladder" but to a "lattice". That is a major priority. The second element - and Dr Egerton might want to comment on this - is that we are already interacting very closely with business and industry in Northern Ireland. If we do not do that we will fail.
1782.
Dr Egerton:In terms of increasing access, one of the major features of the NICATS model is to encourage the motivation of our learners. They can receive regular accreditation for learning and can build that up, rather than be faced with a distant examination two years down the line. Motivation is very important.
1783.
In relation to our involvement with industry and employers, the NICATS model is very useful in enabling employers to customise their programmes forpotential employees. That has various economic benefits. Employers are able to ensure that programmesare tailor-made. Employees will be motivated and will get recognition for their training. Accreditation will allow training to be put towards other awards or to other uses, and not just within the company.
1784.
We are involved in a UK credit equivalence project. That is a major project for us. It is looking at credit equivalence for qualifications. Curriculum 2000 allows more flexibility, but employers and learners need to be able to compare qualifications. There is a great deal of confusion about the worth and levels of the different qualifications. We are trying to establish credit equivalence for national qualifications and the units that go towards making them up. We recognise that certain qualifications do not necessarily suit all employers and learners. They want to be able to take the units that suit them, and they need to be able to get credit for those units. People need to know what the various units are worth and how they can be built upon. The project is looking at NVQs, A levels, GNVQs, et cetera, and their respective units.
1785.
Our first two staff development days were heldlast week, and we have people from firms such as Shorts, Nortel Ltd, Michelin Tyre plc, F G Wilson (Engineering)Ltd, Harland & Wolff and Seagate Technology interestedin the credit equivalence exercise. They see it as being very relevant in bringing transparency and worth to qualifications, allowing them to offer more meaningful and relevant units to their employees, rather than the full qualifications.
1786.
Ms Patton:I will give an example relating to widening access. I have been interviewing learners to get their ideas on credit and how much they feel it would help them. I interviewed someone last week in relation to a case study for our web site and our newsletter. This individual left school at the age of 15 with no qualifications. Before marrying and raising a family she got a series of what she called "very boring" junior office jobs, with tasks such as filing and making the tea. In her 40s, after raising her family, she wanted to get back to work. She found that the office environment was now so computerised and different that she had no qualifications that would have enabled her to get a job. The only job that she could get was as a cleaner in the University of Ulster. She then moved to canteen work in the university. She told me that she had wanted to get back into learning and that the only way she could think of was to do GCSEs, as they were the recognised qualifications.
1787.
She went into the GCSE course, and it was full of 16-year-olds. She said that she felt such a misfit that she dropped out after a short time. She then found out through her work union that there was a Return to Learn programme that was offered by one of the community organisations. She told me that it was a complete revelation, because it was covering all the things she really needed to get herself back into a proper job. It covered interview techniques, listening skills, presentation skills as well as Maths, English language, and so on.
1788.
She was able to complete the course because she could take it in bits and get credit. She told me that she enrolled for the course because she was not scared ofdoing it in bits, but she would have been scared of doinga complete course that might have taken a year. As aresult she continued with her education, has now completeda university bridging course and intends to go into university full time, if she can get the funding for it.
1789.
That is an example of someone for whom the traditional GCSE qualifications did not work. They demotivated her, but when these other programmes came into play, they were just what she needed. One of her final points to me was that people do not really understand the courses that she followed, except the ones that are well recognised. If she had had a NICATS transcript that gave credits for those "funny", as she called them, courses she has done, as well as the more recognised diploma courses, and so forth, it really would have meant an awful lot to her. For us, that is really what NICATS in action means: widening access.
1790.
Ms McWilliams:Having worked with Ms Patton 10 years ago at trying to put those Access courses together, I am familiar with credit accumulation.I want to commend you for how far this has come. Clearly this is the future, and it is good to hear that Northern Ireland is ahead of the field. Perhaps you could comment on what makes you come to that conclusion.
1791.
Is there a time limit on credit accumulation? How long can a student be allowed to take time out and still get currency for what they have accumulated? Is there a limit on a date of return without asking them to repeat anything?
1792.
In one way I am impressed with the way that you are universalising the core modules across 39 Access courses. But on the other hand, having been so familiar with the Access courses, I am somewhat concerned that they may all be driven to core modules. Where is the individuality and the room for that, particularly given that, as you said, many of the students do not have formal qualifications? It is quite scary that it is numeracy and information technology,study skills and communication. I know from experiencethat it was numeracy that made many of them jump a mile.
1793.
What gatekeepers still need reassurance? In a sense, I suppose that is a marketing issue. How well are we on the road to marketing the idea of credit accumulation? Ten years ago the problem I had was trying to get the two universities to recognise that and market it between each other. Now we are at the stage of getting employers to do so. I am not just talkingabout marketing to employers, my question also addressessomething Dr Egerton said about convincing returners, or people who have left school before they were 15, that credit accumulation means something. It still sounds terribly formal. What we are talking about is returning to learn and how well we are marketing that in our most deprived communities.
1794.
Prof Roebuck:May I accept the invitation to make a brief comment on why we think Northern Ireland is ahead in this? I would just like to comment on the last question. We do not want to make Accessslavishly uniform, but we do want to give it a recognisablecore, which is a slightly different thing. I think that Dr Egerton will want to say something about the whole issue of limited credit.
1795.
Some things can be done much more effectively in Northern Ireland than elsewhere, and this is one of them. Northern Ireland is a clearly defined area. If you had a credit group in northern England, where would you start, and where would you end? There are demarcation problems. Northern Ireland is a clearly defined area.
1796.
Secondly, here there are a relatively small numberof institutions: two universities, the Open University, 17 further education colleges, three agriculturalcolleges, the Ulster People's College, the Workers Educational Association, and so on. Most of the people who work there, particularly at certain levels, know each other well and are used to working with each other. All thosepeople are represented on the implementation committeeand were represented on the project committee from1996. Those stakeholders have already bought into that.
1797.
I think that you can do that more effectively in Northern Ireland than you could in southern England, or the Midlands, or northern England or even in the Republic of Ireland, because you are dealing with a smaller, more coherent area, one in which people are used to working with each other for various reasons. That is what our claim is based on, and it is interesting to note that many of the main features of the system that we have developed have been taken up by others. For example, our generic level descriptors are now accepted throughout the sector as the best that have been devised. The trouble is that the language is not terribly sexy, so there is a problem of marketing here.
1798.
The Chairperson:Can you tell us what a generic level descriptor is please?
1799.
Ms Patton:Since Dr Egerton's project was instrumental in developing those, she will be able to do that.
1800.
Dr Egerton:They were developed during the first phase of our project as one of the main aspects or architectural features of the credit framework. There are nine levels from entry level to level eight which span the higher and further education sectors. They describe the attributes that you would expect of learners at each stage of learning.
1801.
Prof Roebuck:We are saying that those generic level descriptors have been adopted by the other credit consortia in the UK as being models of their kind.
1802.
Dr Egerton:It has also been nationally agreed to use them within the UK Credit Equivalence Project.
1803.
Ms Patton:On the issue of access, Monica McWilliams has hit the nail on the head as usual. We are not slavishly trying to have standard core modules that sweep across all of the Access courses and take up most of their curricula. The modules being designed by the project team are ones that people can use if they wish. However, the momentum for this comes from the practitioners themselves and the difficulties that theirAccess certificate holders are experiencing in progressingto higher education. Some of them encounter really serious barriers if they do not have the maths GCSE equivalence. We hope that if we have this maths module, then anyone wanting to solve that problem with their Access course could take the module and use it for their students.
1804.
The NICATS model is offering a different way of looking at, and delivering, learning. The people that we have in the project team include practitioners who have very innovative and exciting ways of delivering mathematics. Because we have practitioners in the team from a range of colleges, we are hoping that that collaborative activity is going to feed into a very different sort of maths teaching on Access courses. Many students, certainly in the humanities Access programmes, are terrified of maths and will happily say "This maths scares me to death" when they come on to the course. Equally, on the project team, we have practitioners who say "I start my first class by sayingthat I am terrified of maths myself" or "I can understandthat you are scared of maths. Let's look at different ways of learning about it". We are hoping therefore to make maths a core module that is less scary for people. Also, if students do not want to take the full maths module for GCSE equivalence, they will have the option of taking individual components, leaving out certain bits if they wish. However, we will certainly be encouraging the Access practitioners to try to deliver the whole module to students.
1805.
Dr Egerton:The currency depends on thesubject area. For example, with IT or anything to do with communication the subject matter will be changingconstantly, so the currency of learning is an issue. It is up to the gatekeeper to decide whether the learning is current or not. However, if it is recorded in a transcript showing the level and volume of learning, that says something about the individual. It tells us they have reached a particular level of learning and are capable of progressing to the next. I feel that is important.
1806.
Ms McWilliams:So there is no limit. They could go out for four years and then return.
1807.
Prof Roebuck:In certain subject areas, questionsmay have to be asked about the reliability and relevanceof learning achieved five or 10 years before. However, the important point is that, in one central database for Northern Ireland, there will be atranscript record showing that, at least at that point, a certain level of learning measured against the curriculumin question was achieved. That system is accepted by all the practitioners in the Northern Ireland tertiary education sector. It is the absence of that agreed system right across the Province which so often provides obstaclesfor people as they progress, reducing their motivation and making them fail to take the available opportunities.
1808.
Mrs Nelis:Thank you very much for your presentation. You are all very welcome. I am very impressedby your key anticipated outcomes. The creditsystem crosses the academic, vocational and further education divide by encouraging a culture of learning skills. Is there any evidence of a fear in the traditional educational sectors that transferable credits might dilute their unique educational contribution?
1809.
Prof Roebuck:I am sure that there are a variety of levels of fear and apprehension when one contemplates the introduction of a quite radical new system. However, if we look back a decade, it would have been difficult, except in theoretical terms, to talk about the Northern Ireland tertiary sector at all. Now it is both possible and realistic to do so. The inter-relationship which has grown up between Northern Ireland's higher and further education sectors over the last five or 10 years, through franchised and validated programmes, progression routes from colleges into individual universities or the network of 39 Accessprogrammes, most of which are in the further education sector, has transformed the situation. I suppose we are saying that this is a further consolidatoryprocess to make those links stronger and render the tertiary sector seamless.
1810.
The practitioners range from absolutely convinced,dedicated enthusiasts at one end of the spectrum down to very sceptical, fearful people at the other, and there are many in between. However, there are far more people now at the positive end, whereas 10 years ago there were more at the other. We are trying to tilt the balance of attitudes decisively and also trying to produce a system which will allow the positive sides of those attitudes to bear real fruit in achievement.
1811.
Mrs Carson:Welcome. Thank you for yourpresentation. We have discussed academic achievementsand how you are to bring them together into some sort of credit. I should be interested to know how you see industry gaining from the use of credit accumulation.
1812.
Prof Roebuck:Dr Egerton has already spoken of the number of large firms in the Province with whom we are already directly engaged. It is also worth bearing in mind that we are in contact with a great many small- and medium-sized enterprises. There is a particular example from engineering which you might want to say something about. There is one generalpoint: your Chairman, in a press release a few days ago,talked about ladders of opportunity. That is an entirelyright and proper way of looking at it. However, we should perhaps like to change the word "ladder" to "lattice".
1813.
It is not just upwards, it is across as well, and it is already beginning to happen. When people are educating and training themselves, it is no longer in just one institution. They may be taking some of their learning from an educational institution, some from theInternet or from the Open University or be taking an accredited programme put on by a particular firm. We are trying to create a system in which the various approachesto learning are encapsulated and brought together rather than remaining separate as they are currently.
1814.
Secondly, in industry, often you do not want somebody to do a degree or even a year-long course, but you want them to do a concentrated chunk of specific professional training, and you will get them to do it more readily and make them more enthusiastic about it if you accredit it and get it recorded so that they can build an edifice from it. At present, employers recognise the short courses that their staff take to a degree, but they are often left adrift. However, if they were formally accredited by a central agency according to a clearly understood system, they would constitute building blocks for a larger achievement.
1815.
The Chairperson:Thank you very much. That has been very interesting and useful, and I like thepicture of the lattice in addition to the more traditional idea of the educational ladder, which most of us have probablygrown up with. We will have to give consideration tothat. Thank you also for the background notes and material. I have little doubt that we will be returning to you in the future. We wish you well in your continuing work.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 15 February 2001
Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Mr R Hutchinson
Mr J Kelly
Ms McWilliams
Mrs Nelis
Witnesses:
Mr C Holmes) Northern Ireland Council
Mr R McCune) for the Curriculum,
Dr A Walker) Examinations and Assessment
1816.
The Chairperson:This meeting is being held in the context of our ongoing inquiry into education and training for industry in Northern Ireland.
1817.
Thank you for your submission. We are likely to focus on your ongoing curriculum review, which has as one of its objectives the setting up of a frameworkfor the development of skills with particular reference tovocational education and information and communicationtechnology (ICT). We would like to commend that objective.
1818.
Dr Walker:I would like to introduce my colleagues, Roger McCune, who is responsible for curriculumand qualifications development in the 14 to 19 age range, and Cecil Holmes, who works in MrMcCune's unit, primarily in the areas of vocational qualifications and careers. As head of education services for all theCouncil for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment(CCEA), my responsibility is in the area of curriculum, examinations and assessment.
1819.
We want to comment on our submission and update you on recent developments in our work and elsewhere that we believe are relevant to your inquiry. Our written submission is divided into two parts. The first part deals with changes that have already taken place, or that will take place shortly, to the curriculum and to qualifications. That reflects the CCEA's role as an advisory body on the curriculum and development and quality assurance of qualifications.
1820.
The second part of the submission refers to the specific role of further education colleges. We have a statutory responsibility to advise on the curriculum for all young people in full-time education until the age of 19, whether they are in schools or in colleges. When we offer advice on matters concerning the 16 to 19 agegroup, we do so simultaneously to MrMartinMcGuinnessand to DrSeánFarren.
1821.
In 2000 we consulted extensively on the outcomesof the first phase of the curriculum review, which concerned whole-curriculum issues and the aims and values underlying the curriculum. The framework for the curriculum and how it should be constructed was also covered. In the revised curriculum we also wanted to clarify and make explicit issues relating to personal, social and health education, as well as citizenship and employability.
1822.
We gave a clear signal, in the consultations at the end of phase one last year, on the enhanced place of skills and competencies within the curriculum. Our belief is that the curriculum should no longer be regarded as knowledge-led. In that consultation the responses we received were, for the most part, very positive. There was a lot of detailed feedback, and we have been making use of that as we progress the second phase of the review.
1823.
I would like to say something in particular about what we have been doing in relation to 14 to 16 year olds, as that is the age group that this Committee is probably most concerned with. We are almost ready for a second stage of consultation on a more detailed framework for the curriculum for that age group.
1824.
We have with us pre-publication copies of a consultation paper that will be launched next month, which we would be pleased to leave with members of the Committee. We would be grateful if the paper could be regarded as confidential at present, but obviously if members have any comments or queries they would like to take up with us, we will be only too delighted to respond.
1825.
In our view the proposals represent a significant move towards greater flexibility for schools and for individual students. At the core of the proposed framework, we have placed the six key skills of communication,application of numbers, information technology, workingwith others, managing or learning, and problem solving.We have suggested that those skills should be the statutory minimum entitlement for all young people, along with some aspect of the curriculum that is work related. We emphasise that we intend that to apply to all 14 to 16 year olds.
1826.
We have also emphasised the role of personal development education, including citizenship, and of creativity, as well as science and technology. Together, that group should comprise the statutory entitlement for all 14 to 16 year olds. We have emphasised the value and the role of language learning, but we are not at this stage proposing that it should be compulsory for every pupil. We think that there may be small numbersof pupils for whom, at present, that may not be productive.
1827.
We look forward to the responses we are due to receive to this document in April and May. We will then firm up recommendations to the Ministers at a later stage in the summer.
1828.
I want to say a few words about the changeswhich took place in the curriculum for 16 to 19year olds in September2000 with the introduction of revisedGCE A and AS levels, the new advanced subsidiary;the changes to the GNVQ advanced examinations, which now become vocational A levels; and the introductionof the separate key skills qualification. The intention behind those changes was a desire to broaden the curriculum. Students might, for example, take a greater number ofthe A and AS subjects than they presently do, particularly in the first year. They might take the key skills qualification as a separate qualification, or they might take a mix of academic and vocational qualifications, particularly in the colleges of further education.
1829.
It is still very early days to begin to measure the impact of these changes. However, a monitoring programme has been planned which will look at the impact of those changes later this year. We would like to know to what extent each of the broadeningeffects has actually materialised and how successful practitioners,and indeed students themselves, believe the changes to be.
1830.
The early indications are of varying experience in schools. Some have introduced a greater measure of change than others, and some have found the changeseasier to implement than others. We know that substantialnumbers of young people are taking four subjects in the first year of sixth form instead of the more usual three. We are not sure to what extent this represents broadening in that the fourth subject may be a similar subject to the other three. We know that substantial numbers of young people are taking the separate keyskills qualification. We are a provider of that qualification,and we have indications from a large number of schools that they will be entering candidates with us. We are not yet aware of the number of pupils who may be mixing academic and vocational qualifications, either in schools or in colleges. We want to find answers to those questions, certainly at the end of the first year as we move into the second year of changes.
1831.
Finally, I want to mention one additional development before Cecil Holmes talks about lifelong learning in colleges of further education, and careersguidance. Two weeks ago, MrDavidBlunkett announcedthe introduction of vocational GCSEs which will be created by remodelling the remaining GNVQ qualifications. We have sent advice on this to the Minister of Education and the Minister of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment and we are now awaiting their replies. We see great value in thecreation of vocational GCSEs. However, we are concernedat the present timetable which is moving towards anintroduction in September 2002. The CCEA has expressed concern to the two Ministers that this timetablemay not leave adequate time for the proper developmentand launching of the new qualifications.
1832.
Mr Holmes:Dr Walker has referred to the CCEA's remit in relation to the curriculum for young people in full-time education up to the age of 19. About 20,000 young people are taking courses in colleges of further and higher education. Following on from Dr Walker's point, it is fair to say that colleges have embraced the changes that were heralded byCurriculum 2000 in September2000. Colleges have made, and will continue to make, an important contributionto vocational education and training in this community.
1833.
As is stated in our submission, questions have been asked about what the focus of further education ought to be. It is also fair to say that in recent times differential funding and other directives from the Department have attempted to ensure that colleges provide courses more directly related to the economicpriorities of Northern Ireland, particularly those identifiedby 'Strategy 2010'.
1834.
Of course, there are many people in the communitywho want to update their skills and knowledge or obtain new qualifications. We believe that the concept of lifelong learning is a reality for all of us. Colleges have a very significant role to play in delivering that.
1835.
The move towards unitisation of qualifications, to which Dr Walker referred in his comments, shouldassist colleges to tailor programmes that suit individualsand small businesses, because they have training needs to which colleges can respond. The Northern Ireland CCEA argues that careers education and guidance is important. Recent reports from the Education and Training Inspectorate (ETI) have suggested that in some places excellent work is being carried out in schools and colleges. However, some improvement is needed in other areas. As a result of the ETI reports,we had a review of careers education in Northern Irelandthat was chaired by Professor Sean Fulton, formerly of Queen's University Belfast. That report will be considered by the two Ministers and we hope thatcareers provision in Northern Ireland will benefit from it.
1836.
Mr Carrick:In the past, the curriculum has failed to move in tandem with the needs of industry. Unfortunately, that failure has created a gap that we will try to address. Does the Northern Ireland CCEA see any difficulty in attempting to create a curriculum that first, provides for economic needs, and secondly, fulfils its duty in providing general education? Are we in danger of falling between those two stools or will the programme be properly focused so that it will deliver on both objectives?
1837.
Dr Walker:I hope so. I have heard the argumentthat the present curriculum has not given enough flexibility to schools because it is based primarily on a range of academic subjects and is intended as a common curriculum for all young people. Particularly in Key Stage 4, but also to an extent in lower key stages, our revision of the curriculum is intended to enable schools to better tailor the curriculum to suit the needs of individual pupils. In my introductory remarks I mentioned that we emphasise the place of key skills in the curriculum. We also emphasise employability. I spoke about personal development at Key Stage 4 in citizenship. Employability will be studied in the area of personal development, young people will be taught the skills they need to become good employees or goodemployers. It will be an important area of the curriculum. I hope that we do not fall between the two stools and that we can move forward with enhanced flexibility that will allow schools to adapt the curriculum to the individual needs of young people.
1838.
Mr Carrick:Is that a radical change to the present system? Is the present system designed to cope with such a radical change?
1839.
Dr Walker:We see the enhanced flexibility opening the potential for change. Schools will be required to undergo a certain amount of change. By providing flexibility we are also enabling them to make changes that they might otherwise have been unable to implement. There is a mixture; the changes in thecurriculum will create and require change to some degree, but they will also enable others to make changes.We also see technology having a substantial impact on education over the next number of years. We also see the role of teachers changing over that time. Schoolsand colleges will be going through a period of considerablechange. It will be important that all of us in education services help them make that change successfully.
1840.
Mr Carrick:Teachers will love to hear that. I hear from the teaching profession that they are looking for a period of stability.
1841.
Mr McCune:In relation to Key Stage 4, MrHolmes and myself undertook a "pre-consultation" exercise before Christmas. We talked to schools, collegesand employers about the proposals that we were formatting. With Key Stage 4, we are taking away what was very much the end of the Northern Ireland curriculum. This is seen to mark the end of compulsory education by taking it into the 14 to 19year old dimension. That is a big change. Schools responded positively to that change, because it gives them more responsibility. Schools thought responsibility had been taken from them and that they were tied too strongly to a content-led curriculum.
1842.
Mr Holmes:That is one of the fundamental questions that education faces. Dr Walker has stated that our essential responsibility is to provide those broad key and generic skills that enable young people to work in different situations. That is the basis of the skills focus in the curriculum that has been outlined.As employment patterns change, it is difficult to identifyfuture needs. Therefore, we must try to grasp the nettle of giving young people those basic generic skills.
1843.
The CCEA has argued that informed careers guidance must take labour market trends into account so that young people can make informed decisions onthe basis of those trends and are not necessarily forced intoa particular vocational area. The CCEA works closelywith the Northern Ireland Business Education Partnership(NIBEP) and change and development must be based on this kind of partnership.
1844.
The Chairperson:You have mentioned your supervisory role in possible changes to the curriculum and how you envisage changes in the labour market inthe future. To what extent do you liaise with the Trainingand Employment Agency, particularly its skills task force and skills unit?
1845.
Mr Holmes:Throughout our work on careers guidance, we received representation from the Trainingand Employment Agency, and from our own qualifications committee. It is an important contribution.
1846.
Mr McCune:We have had close links with the Training and Employment Agency on basic skills, with particular importance being focused on the area of adult education.
1847.
Mr Carrick:The results of the skills task force were alarming, revealing that there is a 70% skills shortage in the construction industry.
1848.
Dr Walker:That is a long-term problem.
1849.
Mr McCune:Yes, those are the findings of the report.
1850.
Mrs Carson:In your submission to the Confederation of British Industry (CBI), you outlinedthe importance of young children having the knowledge,skills and attitudes to equip them for work and lifelong learning, which ties in with a change in attitudes from both schools and parents. In what ways could the attitudes of parents be changed?
1851.
Dr Walker:It is difficult for people in educationto challenge the parents' attitudes. Influence is the best method, and one of the strongest influences is the ethos of the school itself. It is not simply what is taught in the classroom or the subject matter but the way children are treated and the ethos within the school. That transmits to home and helps to influence parental attitudes. The way in which the school frames and approaches the curriculum plays a part in creating that ethos and helps the relationship between parents and schools.
1852.
Mrs Carson:Do you think that our present education system is failing industry?
1853.
Dr Walker:There is clear evidence from employers that they are not in receipt of the types of skills and attitudes they require from the young people they recruit.
1854.
Mr McCune:I was involved in the consultation that led to Curriculum 2000. DrWalker has already mentioned the importance of employers, higher education and the wider key skills of managing one'sown learning, and all working together to solve problems. Our emphasis is on wider key skills. Mr Holmes was involved in the GNVQ six unit pilot scheme which we were very keen to spread across post-primary schools: grammar schools and secondary schools. In talking about the proposals where we had a gradedelement and vocational qualifications, we are not saying that those should only be taught in secondary schools.
1855.
We have been pleasantly surprised by the positiveattitude from the grammar schools to vocationalqualifications. That also challenges parental attitudes because parents tended to view academic qualificationsas offering more than vocational ones. The qualificationsframework helps because it gives qualifications equal status. It is important that employers respond to that.
1856.
Mr Holmes:The attitudinal change is difficult for society. Mr McCune has mentioned that we havetried to improve the credibility and rigour of assessment invocational qualifications. It is crucial that the name changeto "vocational A levels" emphasises parity of esteem.
1857.
The other issue that concerns us is flexibility at Key Stage 4. Currently some young people have set aside aspects of the statutory curriculum and, as part of their work with a college of further education, are at least beginning to be introduced to NVQ in their programmes. We believe that industry would like more young people with NVQ-type qualifications. Within a credible framework we hope the flexibility of Key Stage 4 will begin to address the needs of industry.
1858.
I would like to finish anecdotally. I have been asked to evaluate a school-to-business programme in north Down. As part of that evaluation I met with two sets of parents, and for the first time those parents fully understood what vocational qualifications are about and the credibility in which they are held. Such small things will contribute to a change of culture and a better understanding among parents.
1859.
Dr Walker:In Northern Ireland there is a prevalent attitude among parents that their children should aim for the professions. Recent statistics showthat the largest second-choice subject for pupils applyingfor medicine at university is not biochemistry or molecular biology but law. The reason is that law, like medicine, is a high-status profession. In that sense, attitudes need to be challenged. We need a broader perspective for our young people.
1860.
Mr Dallat:This is an excellent document, but many of the ideas have been around for a long time.They have never been delivered, though I would suggestthat that is not the fault of the CCEA. I refer to lifelong learning, which has been worked on for a long time. The reality is that you are not the engine that will drive the change, and I do not know who is.
1861.
Schools still operate between 9.00am and 3.30pm. The concept of lifelong learning is not a realityin the communities. It was ditched about 12 years ago and has not been mentioned since. Therefore, how do we deliver, or assess, the skills of the quarter of a million people between the ages of 16 and 64 who have serious literacy and numeracy problems? They are equal partners with everybody else in society, but they have been left out of the equation for a variety of reasons.
1862.
Your efforts to promote and broaden personal andsocial education are highly commendable. It is the best,especially, dare I say it, those issues which directly influencethe way we act politically, how we understandour communities and how every individual has an important role to play in improving them. They are all in thedocument. However, as you have pointed out, it will never constitute more than 10% of the curriculum, and manyschools, which are still focused on academia, will neverconsider it. I suppose that it is a cry for help; it is certainlynot a criticism. How can these programmes gain the statusthey deserve, and how can those people who are out of the loop completely be brought into the equation?
1863.
Dr Walker:I want to say two things briefly, and then Mr McCune may want to comment.
1864.
With regard to adult literacy, Mr McCune mentioned that we have had contact with the basic skills unit, and we discussed how to deliver the basic skills programme, which is aimed at adult literacy and numeracy, in Northern Ireland. We believe that the CCEA would provide the basic skills qualification which will be made available. It will have a specified curriculum and will be delivered through the formal channel of colleges and through voluntary groups who do work on basic literacy and numeracy with adults. The aim is for it to be an incentive and an effective recognition for people who make progress. If they can establish a level of skill in literacy and numeracy, it is hoped that it will provide employers with convincing evidence of their achievement.
1865.
I will turn now to changes in the school curriculum and the emphasis that we want to place onpersonal development. Over the past few years we have been involved in much research. We were involved in the Northern Ireland Cohort Study, which was an in-depth study of young people's attitudes, particularly as they went through Key Stage 3. It focused on how they reacted to the curriculum and how they perceived what they were taught in school. It was a rich study for findings. It discovered that pupils gave recognition to the association between assessment and importance. In other words, if something is assessed and accredited, then that is what is important.
1866.
Instead of fighting against that, we have to runwith it. Therefore, if we want to emphasise the importanceof personal development, citizenship and employabilityet cetera, they must be built into the examination and qualification structure. We hope that that will be the lever to create and drive change.
1867.
Mr McCune:Mr Dallat made a good point. In my view, what we are doing has two tracks. First, there is a hope that changes to the curriculum, if they work, will eventually mean that the current problems are a thing of the past. Secondly, there is a need to address the existing issues.
1868.
Dr Walker mentioned the basic skills and support for those in lifelong learning. For instance, the NICATS development has been referred to. The University for Industry talks about a "bite-sized" area. Support is important. Dr Walker mentioned key skills, and we have been in contact with the basic skills unit. The last thing you want is a test that 60% of people fail. What does that tell somebody, as an adult? Careful support is needed to bring those people back into education. A "get going" attitude can develop, which can be helpful in taking on lifelong learning. There is a big agenda. I hope that with the curriculum in place and the qualifications to support it, we are going to take away the need for that in the longer term.
1869.
Mr Beggs:Returning to vocational training and skills, I support the idea of giving high-fliers a taste ofthe real world of future employment, and also the many underachievers in schools who are currently switchedoff. What success have the current pilot schemes had? Iunderstand that they are helping to improve the attitudesand motivation of those whom the school system has been failing.
1870.
What criticisms do you have of the currentcareers guidance structures? Are you aware of any bettermodels or any ideas that need to be incorporated? That is another key feature in linking the world of employment to training, particularly at school age.
1871.
An IT lecturer told this Committee that his or her child should not take a particular computer course because it was so outdated that it would put them off the subject. When will that be improved? Recently we were told that a popular A level course in design and technology had been removed from the curriculum. What was the reason for that?
1872.
Dr Walker:A few years ago the CCEA was under considerable economic pressure and decided to rationalise the range of subjects that it offered. It did so in the context of a proposed collaboration with one ofthe large English boards. In the event, that collaborationdid not materialise. We have now moved to reinstate anumber of the subjects that we had intended to withdrawfrom, including design and technology.
1873.
As for computer courses being outdated, there is a division between what is taught in schools under the heading of "computer studies", and ICT. Computer studies is a course that is directed at people who mayhave an interest in working with computers at a later time, for example by undertaking computer science degrees.On the other hand, ICT is a general course aimed at those who want to become users of ICT.
1874.
There is a move towards orientating large numbersof students towards ICT, but a significant number of pupils may still be taught computer science courses that are probably not particularly relevant to them. That is a change that is taking place. We are currently revising GCSE provision for ICT. New specifications are currently being issued.
1875.
Mr McCune:I think that you were referring to the word that schools hate - the "disapplication" that the Department brought in in relation to Key Stage 4. Mr Holmes will probably want to talk about that. He has already said that schools found the framework ofKey Stage 4 difficult to work with. One of the measuresthat the Department of Education has put in place over the past two years, which they call an experiment, is disapplication.
1876.
In other words, schools can submit programmes to them which must include a work-related element. Ithink that is what you are referring to as very successful.They have been. We have a 14 to 19 year old implementation group which has helped us, particularly with the16 to 19Curriculum 2000. Two principals on that group are involved, and they can show results right down toattendance levels, which have risen over the two years from 64% to 91% for one pupil. As Mr Holmes mentioned, that has been down to the practice of spending three days in school, one in the work place and one in the local college. They are looking at ways to refine it further because they think too much is being squeezed into the three days in school, but it has been very successful and motivating.
1877.
Mr Beggs:When might it be widened?
1878.
Mr McCune:The flexibility we are suggestingis more for the benefit of schools, so that they can go on to develop it. Mr Holmes might want to add something to that, because he has been involved in the evaluation and he also mentioned the area of careers.
1879.
Dr Walker:In passing over to him, let me just mention the Key Stage 4 proposals in the sense that, at present, that scheme is operating by disapplication. In other words, you are saying to some people that they are not now required to do what the law requires them to do in terms of the curriculum. An exception is being made in their case. What we hope to do with this is to make it the norm rather than the exception, if this is what schools want to do.
1880.
Mr Holmes:I want to add briefly to what MrMcCune has quite rightly said. A number of experimentsare ongoing following the issue of a departmental circular after a recommendation from the CCEA. Quite clearly, attendance and motivation to work in schoolgenerally appears to be improving. I looked at examplesin Derry and Newry and found it significant that a number of pupils said on their return to school that they must improve their numeracy or they would not be able to work properly on their next day in the work place. Clearly they saw the relevance of that because they were in that kind of context.
1881.
I feel I should add a word of caution. In the experimental period, many of the groups which needthat kind of support are working towards different typesof qualifications, and in some cases towards NVQ units. They find that extremely helpful. As we review this, the CCEA and the Department will want to make sure that vocational qualifications are not perceived as being for the disaffected only. The CCEA plan to investigate the feasibility or necessity of providing a different kind of occupation-related scheme to meet the need of those pupils to whom you refer, plus others throughout the school, in the context of Key Stage 4.
1882.
You asked about our most up-to-date informationon careers guidance. I have referred to the review group. Before we look at too many models it is worth looking at the current position. It would be fair to say that in some people's minds the issue of league or school performance tables meant that careers work and the like did not have the priority that it should have had, and we sympathise with that. That was the case in some schools. We are not making a value judgement about schools or criticising them; that was simply the reality. With the removal of performance tables it maybe that other priorities like careers will get the prominencethey deserve. However, I have in front of me a report from the DETI on careers work, which we believe covers some of the issues we have to tackle. I will quote one short paragraph: "In a significant minority of schools, the teachers who lead the work of the careers department have specialist qualifications in careers education. The majority of other teachers involved in supporting the work of the schools in careers education do not have a specialist qualification."
1883.
That would not be tenable or tolerable in any other subject area. Therefore, we believe that in the short term there are specific practical issues that can and ought to be addressed sooner rather than later. That is one area of particular concern to us. We have also been told that the Training and Employment Agency complement of careers officers is below the original intended target. I hope that the review will follow throughon some of those matters, without breaking any confidenceabout that review.
1884.
Taking a slightly more long-term perspective in terms of our own curriculum review, we argue that skills of self-management and career-management are an integral part of that curriculum, right through from primary school to the post-primary sector.
1885.
I hope that answers your question, Mr Beggs.
1886.
The Chairperson:This will have to be the final question.
1887.
Ms McWilliams:I am very supportive of the general direction in which you are moving. I was interested in comments about the dual system in Germanybeing inappropriate because it is too slow to respond to a volatile labour market. It seems that you are trying tosuggest a combination, with occasional academic subjectsrunning alongside areas that can respond. There is one aspect that I do not understand because I cannot grasp it as well as the work-related component. While the other four pieces of the statutory entitlement are very clear, are you suggesting that they can make up the work-related component by simply selecting elements from other subjects, or is that an entirely new part of the curriculum? Moreover, did you give some thought to credit accumulation for this new statutory entitlement?
1888.
Mr McCune:At the moment, we set out the work-related element to cover quite a wide spread. For instance, vocational GCSEs, if they commend taking the GNVQ model part one as a Key Stage 4 model, can introduce areas that perhaps have not been able to be taken in the vocational field before, such as leisure and tourism. Furthermore, they will provide schools with an opportunity to look at ways in which they can work with colleges or local industry, in the example I gave of the disapplication. It will be important for us to link up a corresponding qualification that they could take.
1889.
Ms McWilliams:All I am suggesting is that it is much more difficult to assess how that would work.
1890.
Dr Walker:Some pilot work is beginning in areas of employability. We are looking at what is happening with the so-called disapplication scheme to see how that type of scheme can be expanded to include a wider range of pupils. Most pupils currently involved in those projects would be less able than those in secondary schools. Some of the principals involved are concerned that that is the case and would prefer it to be much more widely spread. What wewant to do by moving that to the centre of the curriculum, rather than it being on the periphery or even outside it, is to try to ensure that that will be the case.
1891.
Ms McWilliams:Do you foresee a stage where pupils will drop a language in order to take up that option? Dropping a language is allowed, but you say a minority of students take up the option. However, it could turn out to be a majority of students. You cannot predict that.
1892.
Dr Walker:We cannot, but we have indicated in the document that we feel that learning a language is very important for young people at this stage. We are slightly concerned about the degree of success that many of our young people have in learning languages. That may be down to the way we approach languagelearning, or the stage at which it begins. For that reason,we are about to advertise for someone to workwith us on a language learning project for primary schools.If we begin language learning at that stage we may make quicker progress, subsequently, making pupils who really do not want to learn languages, and who are gaining little from it, less of a problem at Key Stage 4.
1893.
Mr McCune:There is no doubt about it. They are proposals, and consultation tells us that they are areas that will be raised many times. We have takenpragmatic decisions and Dr Walker's points, on previousfunding and the language-for-all policy for 14 to 16 year olds, are extremely valid.
1894.
Mr Holmes:It poses a challenge for schools and boards of governors to make sure that they provide a total curriculum package that meets the needs of their pupils. Significant and difficult decisions will have to be made, which I hope will be based on our advice andadvice from the Department. Looking slightly ahead there could be a scenario where some young people, taking account of economic circ*mstances and their own personalstrengths, could easily take two vocational GCSEs alongside English and mathematics. Certain subjects that we have all held dear, and which we feel ought to be there, will be squeezed out.
1895.
That is the kind of decision that schools will have to take. The vast majority will be expected to do a language. There will be questions about subjects such as history, geography, economics, and those will be the difficult decisions. So, to answer Mr Carrick, this may guide how we choose to meet the labour market demands at a particular time. It will dictate the type of curriculum individual pupils may take.
1896.
The Chairperson:Do you see your role as neutral on subjects that young people are studying, or do you want to adopt a more directive role? Clearly, there are strong trends against certain subjects such as mathematics, physics and economics, with other subjects such as business studies growing in numbers. We could all have opinions on what is happening. Do you see your role as trying to steer? Have you an ideal pattern of the subjects being studied?
1897.
Dr Walker:We do not have an ideal. We askquestions when we see the drift away from mathematicsand physics to find out why this is happening. If we are losing people whom we need to study those subjects, we want to know if this is a threat to the economy. We need to know the reason, what it is about these subjects that is turning people off. We are looking at this and considering what the nature of mathematical education should be. Arguably, there are those who feel we are teaching too much mathematics. People feel that what we teach is largely irrelevant, and this is causing the problem rather than what we are not teaching.
1898.
Likewise with science, there is probably a case for looking at science education and asking if the way we approach science now is the correct way for science education in the twenty-first century. We are taking a long view, because this is not the sort of change we could introduce over the next year or two. The time to start thinking about these things is now because these issues are being thrown up by the curriculum review. We do not believe that what is implemented in schools in 2003 is the end of a process; it is a stage in a processand there will be considerable work to be done thereafter.
1899.
The Chairperson:Thank you very much. Yourpresentation has been very interesting. This is a long-term, ongoing project. This Committee, or successive Committees in the future, will re-examine these issues. Wewish you well with the ongoing review and consultationon the curriculum.
1900.
Dr Walker:Thank you for the opportunity to attend.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 22 February 2001
Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mrs Carson
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mr Dallat
Mr Hay
Mr R Hutchinson
Mr J Kelly
Witnesses:
Ms C Phillips) Bombardier Aerospace,
Mr H McGonigle) Shorts
1901.
The Chairperson:Good afternoon. I welcome you to our evidence session relating to our inquiry into education and training for industry. Thank you for yournotes. I invite you to begin with a short presentation, andwe will then ask you some questions.
1902.
Ms Phillips:Thank you for the opportunity to meet the Committee. We both come from the trainingside of Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts. We have prepareda document for you. The first page sets out the contents,and I will talk you through those in case we do nothave time to go through the entire document. We can then return to the document as we consider your questions.
1903.
We want to set the scene for you in relation to Bombardier. Shorts is now owned by Bombardier,which is a global organisation. The document covers Bombardier's presence in Northern Ireland with Shorts.It then moves to this year's recruitment statistics and the difficulties experienced this year in recruiting. We took on some 1,400 people in the last 12 months, and we have had to face various issues such as dropoutrates and failure at interviews and tests. We will then cover our links with education and development throughour relationships with the universities and colleges of further and higher education. We will then raise some issues relating to the field of equal opportunities, and make some recommendations that we feel will be of help to the Committee.
1904.
If members want me to cover any specific issues in my introduction I will do so. Perhaps you want me to go straight to the recommendations?
1905.
The Chairperson:We are happy for you to take us through the document.
1906.
Ms Phillips:We have used bullet points rather thana lot of text. If you want to ask a question just stop me.
1907.
Bombardier is an international organisation, a global company. Bombardier's fields of activity are inaerospace (the biggest sector of the business), transportation, recreation, capital and international aspects. The transportation side deals mostly with rail carriages; aerospace covers business and regional aircraft; and the recreational element is in skidoos and "seadoos" - boats and snow equipment. The capital side involves investment, and the international side is about a global approach to sales and marketing. The revenue for the whole corporation is 13·6 billion Canadian dollars. It is a very substantial company.
1908.
In business terms, we rank number one in mostof the markets we operate in. These are regional aircraft,business aircraft, amphibious aircraft, rail passenger cars and personal watercraft. It has always been our objective to rank number one.
1909.
In the aerospace section there are 38,000employees. Overall, Bombardier has approximately 56,000employees. There are four main manufacturing sites:Shorts in Belfast with approximately 7,000 people, Canadair in Montreal, De Haviland in Toronto and Lear Jet in Wichita in Kansas. The other three sites are in North America and the fourth is in Northern Ireland.Bombardier is the third largest civil aircraft manufacturerin the world and we concentrate on design, manufactureand build of aircraft. The company has grown considerablyover the years. Bombardier has owned Shorts since 1989. It has an annual compounded growth of 21% with revenues in aerospace of £8.1 billion. We have ahealthy order book with a backlog of 1,000 aircraft orders(including options) at the moment, which represents 19 billion Canadian dollars. This is why we have had to do so much recruitment this year. It is a busy industry at the moment.
1910.
I will take you through the figures for Shortsand explain to you a little bit about the issues we have there.
1911.
The Bombardier philosophy over the last few yearshas been to introduce one new aircraft programme eachyear. Listed on the second and third pages of the documentbefore you, you will see the different aircraft programmes we are involved in. Those are a combinationof regionalaircraft and business jets. Our market share for businessaircraft is 20% internationally, and 46% for regional aircraft. In 1999-2000, 292 aircraft were delivered, just one less than Airbus, and at the end of the current year 365 completed aircraft will have been delivered by Bombardier. There has been substantial growth.
1912.
Although Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts in Northern Ireland is a manufacturing centre for Bombardier, we do not deliver any aircraft, but are involved in eight of their programmes, which make us crucial to the business. Sixty per cent of our workload in Belfast is on Bombardier products. At the Belfast site our main activities and centres of excellence are in fuselage assembly; nacelles; the Lear 45, the biggest component we manufacture; the Belfast City Airport;and our manufacturing processes, in particular, compositemanufacturing. We have five manufacturing sites inthe Belfast area: Queen's Island at Airport Road; Hallmarkin Newtownards; and the Crossgar, Newtownabbey and Dunmurry plants.
1913.
You have before you a breakdown of our employees. You can see that the majority of our employees arein the operations sector; there are over 5,000 employeesthere. Two-thirds of those employees are skilled and an approximate ratio of one-third is semi-skilled. That is where the major recruitment activity was last year.
1914.
You will also note the details of our engineering structure, finance, human resources, procurement, programme contracts and quality. Substantial investment has been made in technology by Bombardier; as you can see in the brief, around £900 million has been invested. Our technology is state-of-the-art.
1915.
Bombardier's priorities are driven by bottom-line values; the company needs to see results and wantsshareholder value. Our priorities and processes are tightly governed. Some of the priorities have been to successfullymanage the major expansion in the business, to implement the new programmes and to increase production rates. This year alone we have had a productionrate increase of the RJ aircraft, which means that we have worked at a move rate of one barrel every one and a half days. There are three fuselages for one aircraft programme going out of Shorts every week. That is a big increase for us and that is only one programme.
1916.
The CRJ 700 and 900 regional aircraft programmesare both in the growth market. The Continental is the newest addition to our business aircraft. We want tomanage the continuation of a large investment programmeand of our factory reorganisation. We aim to increase employment by 20%, and have already done that in the past year. We also want to increase our procurement in the island of Ireland to £500 million in the next few years, and to reduce costs on all contracts.
1917.
Our standards of excellence are demonstrated inthe awards that Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts received last year. Last year it received the manufacturerof the year award, MX 2000 Manufacturing Excellence, and retained its Investor in People (IIP) award. BombardierAerospace, Shorts has 10 national and 23 regional trainingawards, so it does a lot of work in training and development.
1918.
Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts is consistently profitable with a growing turnover and new product lines. In 1989 it produced 360s and 330s, but they have all been replaced by new products in the factory.
1919.
Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts is probably oneof the best-equipped factories in Bombardier Aerospaceand its IT systems are amongst its best. Its business processes are also very much aligned to Bombardier Aerospace. It has remained internationally competitive despite the current adverse exchange rates and it is continually undergoing major expansion.
1920.
One cannot overestimate the growth that therehas been this year and the challenges that that has givenus with regard to bringing people in, training them, gettingthem online and producing work to schedule.
1921.
Last February there was a recruitment fair. We received 15,000 requests for application forms and 9,000 of them were returned. We had about 15 additional temporary staff on a full-time basis for about six months to help with that exercise. We carried out 5,700 tests and interviewed over 4,000 people and that resulted in 1,400 new starts. Bombardier Aerospace,Shorts is continuing to recruit. It expects to be advertisingagain in the middle of March for an apprenticeship intake and also to meet our skilled intake requirement.
1922.
The company has also appointed 186 people through internal promotions.
1923.
The next chart shows a breakdown of part of the recruitment exercise for last year. It gives an indication of the process followed by people who apply to the company. I have not detailed every function that was advertised or included last year on your document, but the first column on the left shows that from the 8,500 people who applied to the company, 4,395 did not get in. Some of those people were withdrawn through interview, a failed medical or test or decided that they were no longer interested. That is a very high dropout rate, but again, to give you an indication of how it is spread across the company, I have broken that down into the main areas of skilled, semi-skilled, process operators, stores, work material planning, procurement and apprenticeship.
1924.
Most of you probably know about Interpoint. Itis at the Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts learning campusin Belfast city centre at York Street, but we also haveestablished partnerships with Queen's University and theUniversity of Ulster. Those partnerships were mainlyestablished through the Integrated Graduate Development Scheme (IGDS) which has been running for a number of years. Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts also has a partnership on that type of programme with the University of Warwick.
1925.
Representatives from Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts also sit on the industrial advisory board for the engineering faculty at Queen's University, and it has a partnership with Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education (BIFHE). Those partnerships are mainly concerned with apprenticeship training but we also do a lot of manufacturing and engineering programmes with them.
1926.
Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts also sponsors the aeronautical chair at Queen's University and has representatives who sit on the board of the sectoral training council, the Engineering Training Council (ETC),which is located at Interpoint and runs its own modern apprenticeship programme there. Some of you also knowthat Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts has a fully equippedskills centre at Interpoint. Bombardier Aerospace, Shortsusually takes in approximately 40 apprentices each yearand we hope to increase that to 55 this year. It also runs a scheme on behalf of the Training and Employment Agency which brings in 10 additional apprentices.
1927.
Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts runs apprenticeship training for other external organisations and it alsoruns an in-house adult apprenticeship programme. Therefore people who have come through the organisationas semi-skilled can train for three years for an NVQ and become skilled.
1928.
Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts set up the flight experience display at the Ulster Folk and TransportMuseum. It is working on the development of a CD-ROMfor schools that will be linked to the curriculum. Teachers and the BBC are also involved in developing the CD-ROM. It will be integrated into the curriculum but will concentrate mainly on science, technology and business studies. These are some of Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts' efforts to get into the education system and influence the education of young people who might come in to the company.
1929.
We are also working on a career window web site. We have been asked to participate in this initiative as a pilot exercise. We carry out a lot of work on careers conventions and work experience. We target particular schools to try to build up a relationship with them and to encourage them to take on projects with us. We continually work hard on equal opportunities, but we do not always see the benefits from that. We try very hard to recruit from all sectors of the community but we have great difficulty attracting females and Roman Catholics into the company. We have set up initiatives with the Training and Employment Agency through the Bridge to Employment programme and the Job Wise programme to try to address that, and we actively encourage all sectors to apply. We also work hard on community relationships through education and through business initiatives. However, we would appreciate some additional help on that.
1930.
I have split the recommendations into careersguidance and advice. We have experienced a significantdrop off in the number of people who apply for the apprenticeship programme. One reason for that is because many children are being encouraged to stay on at school, and they no longer see engineering as an attractive option. Parents and schools are strongly encouraging young people to stay on at school. Careful consideration should be given to the quality of careers advice given to young people in secondary education. They should be strongly encouraged to look at all the potential options and the resulting benefits. There is a lot of competition out there, particularly on the GNVQ side. A lot of young people go into sectors such as leisure and tourism. However, those industries may not provide a long-term career for them, and we question the benefits to them as individuals, to industry and to the country in general.
1931.
The engineering sector is growing substantially and we cannot get the people that we need. Young people's expectations and career aspirations have been less evident in recent years. The transfer of skills andjob changes appear to be an attractive but at times short-term option. Sometimes young people choose somethingwithout thinking about the long-termimplications. The concepts of challenge, change, growth,development and ambition need to be instilled at an early age.
1932.
In our own modern apprenticeship scheme 95%to 100% of our trainees will complete their apprenticeship,but statistics show that only 12% of young people whoenter a modern engineering apprenticeship can completeit to NVQ level3. Only 36people out of 300 come outwith an apprenticeship! The Engineering Training Councilis trying to address that at the moment.
1933.
Very few females are encouraged to come through a modern apprenticeship programme in engineering.We get about five applicants and only one or two women come through each year. We would like to attract more females into that area. If they begin an apprenticeship with us they will not have to stay on it; they may get other opportunities in the company later. To train with a company such as Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts andto go into a technical route would clearly be an advantage.
1934.
The gap in education provision and industry requirements has substantially widened. The correlationbetween education content and industry requirements is not as good. There is a greater need for teachers to work closer with industry in order to ensure that education connects to our standards. We also feel thatthe standard of core basic engineering skills has dropped.Over the past year we have supported additional educationfor our apprentices in the areas of science and mathematics. They cannot relate to what they are learning, and find it very difficult to learn in college. Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts has had to support that a little. Young people need a strong foundation to buildupon so that new technology solutions can be understood and applied. The basic skills are still absolutely essential even though technology is moving on.
1935.
We did a mathematics project recently in partnership with the Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education. This is an example of good practice; it was very successful and it would be advantageous to replicate this in other areas. Some students were struggling with their results. The college expected a failure rate but we didn't expect people to fail. We wanted them to succeed and decided to do whatever we could to help them.
1936.
We had to work very hard to encourage the college to be part of this. However, they did come on board and we have had very good results. We reviewed the assignments and introduced new ones that were more relevant to the company and which included design manufacture and CNC.
1937.
The lecturer, who was female, reviewed the syllabus and mapped every subject back to the NationalVocational Qualification (NVQ). We received every possible piece of information on the syllabus that we could apply to the work that the students did in the company. They incorporated new projects into the syllabus and we had a 100% success rate. The students now enjoy and understand the course much more. This is a very good working example for us.
1938.
Our experience of basic engineering and core skills training initiatives for employees in declining industries in preparation for employment has been through the Bridge to Employment scheme. We havehad to give a lot of foundation training to people cominginto Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts, even if they havecome from Harland and Wolff. There is quite a differencebetween the engineering skills required in our industriesand those needed in other industries.
1939.
We need to increase the efforts being made to attract under-represented groups into the industry. We would benefit from the influence of this sort of group. We need to work with schools and community bodies to encourage people to join this type of industry.
1940.
The Chairperson:That was an extremely helpfulreport that was packed with specific examples, some of which were very thought provoking and will feature in the questions and discussion that follow.
1941.
Mr J Kelly:You are clustered in Greater Belfast,mostly in east Belfast. Is there a logistical reason why you cannot move beyond there to a rural area, forexample? Why is it difficult to attract non-traditional applicants, such as people from the Catholic community?Is there something you can do to encourage peoplefrom the Nationalist or Catholic communities to join thoseindustries? Are there certain skills which are developed most effectively in the workplace, and others that should always be taught in an educational institute? Can you marry the two things by giving someone educational experience followed by work experience?
1942.
Ms Phillips:Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts is the oldest aircraft manufacturer in the world and we have been based off Queen's Island since 1938, I think. We have plants in Newtownards and Dunmurry and we have invested a lot of money in the Dunmurry plant over the past year. We joined the two plants at that sitetogether with a tunnel and we now manufacture in there.We have increased our work packages and manpowerin Dunmurry. Those measures have been part of our effortto attract more people from that part of the community to apply for work.
1943.
The other plants are already well established, but in Dunmurry we are very focused on our investmentin attracting and providing options for those people. Wehave various equal opportunity initiatives, one of which focuses on how to advertise for staff for the company.We now advertise locally in five papers: the "Belfast Telegraph", the "News Letter", the "Irish News", the "Andersonstown News" and the "Lisburn Star".
1944.
We have broadened our reach as regards tryingto attract people, and when we are considering recruitment,we work with the T&EA and community organisations in the area.
1945.
We are also running a Bridge to Employment programme, which has brought in about 300 people over the last few years. Typically in that event we invitecommunity representatives to the company and givethem an overview of the type of work involved, providing them with as much information as possible assisted by theT&EA. Our Newtownabbey and Dunmurry plants comprise unskilled work, process operator type work, and are prime locations for attracting females and Catholics into the business. We are working hard to attract more people to the company.
1946.
Mr J Kelly:Is there a chill factor that discouragesCatholics from joining the company?
1947.
Ms Phillips:It is perceived that we are an east Belfast company and have traditionally not had a high representation of Catholics. Therefore, Catholics are reluctant to apply for jobs. From our visits to schools,we know that there is also a limited amount of knowledgein some areas about the type of business and industry we are involved in. In one school, the children had not heard about Shorts and did not know that we werethere. There is a need for better education and increased awareness. We really do want to encourage more peopleto join the company.
1948.
Mr J Kelly:I appreciate that.
1949.
Mr McGonigle:Some bridge building does takeplace when people come into the company, particularly among young people. Those of the same persuasion tend to remain in their own corners, and it is only through outward-bound activities, working with them in teams, and trying to get them to relate to each other, that barriers are broken. It is very satisfying to see people become firm friends as the year progresses.
1950.
Mr J Kelly:Should skills be acquired at an educational institution or in the workplace? How can these be married together?
1951.
Mr McGonigle:Many years ago, there were technical schools. Our company requires many of thetraditional skills such as fitting and sheet metal working.However, nowadays, young people come to us with very little experience of materials, or of the skills we need. They are starting from a very basic level.
1952.
Additionally, we are not getting the same numbers nowadays. A few years ago, we would havehad more than 1,000 people applying for apprenticeships.Today it might be around 400. However, when you look at the overall figures you find that 42% go into higher education and 37% go into further education. We are getting part of the remainder.
1953.
We know that skills are missing because we carry out the Saville and Holdsworth test for all the young people we take on and we see skills decreasing every year, particularly in mathematics. We reckon that if we carried out the test for another 20 years we would find that young people then would have no mathematical skills at all.
1954.
Mr Byrne:You are bringing us a good news story. It is wonderful that the company is employing so many people and is expanding its workforce so energetically.
1955.
First, your in-house training scheme for apprenticesseems to be very successful. Obviously, the worrying aspect for us is that 300 people join modern apprenticeships and only 36 come out. Why do you think your scheme is so successful?
1956.
Secondly, your relationship with BIFHE seems to be company-led, and that seems to be beneficial toyou. Why do you think that arrangement is working? Haveyou any plans to go to other further education colleges?
1957.
Thirdly, as regards schools recruitment and careersadvice, do you visit schools across Northern Ireland or only those in the Belfast area?
1958.
Mr McGonigle :One of the big problems in apprenticeships is funding. We commit to the young people when we take them on board. There is funding for the first year with some providers, and then a company has to take them on board. As part of the modern apprenticeship they have to be employed in their second and third year, and this is where there is a quite a loss. They are in training for the first year with a provider and with a company three or four days a week. Sometimes that company does not take them on. There is a possibility that they might come through with another group of people.
1959.
Another reason is that we work at it, keeping them together for the first year. We mentor them, coach them, tutor them and bring them along. It is not just craft type things; we talk to them about life, and about teamwork. We do six sigma and quality projectsto keep their interest. We also encourage them with help in their studies. They see a good future with Shorts.
1960.
Mr Byrne:Is it a three-year MA they do with you?
1961.
Mr McGonigle:It is a three-year MA.
1962.
Mr Byrne:Is the training for year two and three company funded?
1963.
Mr McGonigle:That is correct.
1964.
Mr Byrne:How many apprentices normally stay on with you?
1965.
Mr McGonigle:All of them stay.
1966.
Ms Phillips:A number of those apprentices havemoved into senior positions. Some of our very senior management have been apprentices in the company. The opportunities there are great.
1967.
Mr Dallat:You referred to integrating your workforce. It is widely recognised that you have strived to do that, and that should be encouraged by everyone. The spin-off for the wider community is enormous. You certainly have my full support.
1968.
A lot of people apply for your jobs but a horrendous number fail before the interview stage. My specialist interest is adult literacy and numeracy. I am interested in this innovative partnership with BIFHE. Have you unlocked a door that education has failed to do in encouraging young people to acquire basic skills that they failed to get in the education system? Have you any advice for people like myself who survived the system for 30 years, but did not quite achieve that breakthrough.
1969.
Ms Phillips:We found an expectation that therewill be a certain amount of failure, which is unacceptablefrom an industry point of view. For every investment we make in developing people, we want to make sure they can transfer the knowledge. We have to work very hard to transfer their learning into being able to apply the skills, not just at an apprentice level but at higher levels as well.
1970.
We are highly involved in the steering committeefor the Integrated Graduate Development Scheme. Weare ensuring that the content is applicable to the industry.There is still room for improvement in education.
1971.
Mr Dallat:You are an international company but you give me the impression that you are very much a family business - for example, the way you allow your employees to progress through the system, and your special reference to girls coming in at one level and progressing. How do you achieve that?
1972.
Ms Phillips:We are an international company.At present we have over 70 staff on assignment throughoutBombardier, including many senior people. The onlyway to get people into the organisation is to recruit themat a lower level and develop them. They get promoted andmove up. We do tend to move people across the organisation quite substantially. We contribute the largest amount of talent to the rest of Bombardier Aerospace, more than the other three sites. The same transfer ofknowledge does not come our way. Staff have an opportunity to relocate themselves and their family for two or three years, taking their skills and experience away withthem, and we guarantee them relocation back at Shorts.
1973.
Mr Beggs:I commend you for your work with BIFHE and on the ONC in aeronautical engineering.Have lessons learnt, particularly in relation to the teaching of mathematics, been passed on to the Departmentof Education and CCEA? You highlighted that as an area of weakness in all your applicants.
1974.
You said that only 12% of young people embarkingon an apprenticeship actually reach NVQ level 3. Is that a Northern Ireland wide figure? Why is it so low? What specific areas of improvement do you want? You talkedabout better governance but can you be more specific, so that we can understand what you are referring to?
1975.
Finally, I note from the statistics that the most common reason for rejecting applicants was failure at the test stage - 1,234 were rejected. What type of test is it? Why are people not achieving the basic skills that you consider are necessary for them to undertake a semi-skilled job with your company?
1976.
Ms Phillips:We use Saville and Holdsworth tests because they are most relevant to the types of jobs that the operators do. Over 4,000 people applied for the process operator positions. We had to be selective about the number of people who would be interviewed. Those 1,200 people had the lowest test scores. Afterthey were taken out, 50% of the semi-skilled people were still in the pool. We use the tests for that particulargroup in order to reduce the numbers involved.
1977.
We pay some more attention to the tests for apprentices, because there is a high dropout rate there. However, the situation with the process operators is just to do with volume.
1978.
Mr Beggs:Are you still getting the type of employees that you need?
1979.
Ms Philips:Yes, we are still getting employees on the process side of things. We are more concerned about skilled positions and apprentices.
1980.
I am not sure that we can influence the governance of the modern apprenticeship. The colleges shouldgive some commitment to those people undertaking the apprenticeship programme to see them beyond level 2.We find that many people achieve level 2 but do not reach level 3, which is outside our apprenticeship programme.
1981.
Mr McGonigle:Many colleges take the modern apprenticeship on board. They can run courses up toNVQ level 2, but the big problem is that the students must be employed after that. Employers are not picking them up, or there is an abundance of people at that level.
1982.
Mr Beggs:Is 12% a Northern Ireland wide figure?
1983.
McGonigle:Yes, it is.
1984.
On the question of the mathematics project, we believe that we have a role model. We know lecturers are very busy and do not have much spare time. They are measured by the number of people in their class, but our project happens outside the classroom. We got somebody to come into the company, almost on a dailybasis, to work on this, to look and help us understand what we were doing. They sat down with us and devisedassignments relative to our business. This was then mapped against the curriculum and the NVQ. That made it much more interesting for the kids, and the lecturers learned a great deal too.
1985.
The problem was that the lady lecturer did this in her own time because she had her own classes to do as well. We had hoped to convince the colleges to allow the lecturers time, outside of their teaching duties, to come in and get involved in this. As far as we are concerned, many of the things they do are not relative to the business world and are out of date.
1986.
We took these to the Institute of Mathematics and Applied Mathematics. People from all over the world, including professors, accepted this and thought it was a brilliant role model. We thought we were out of place because they were nearly all from university,but they were very pleased. It actually was in the institute's magazine. We need to be able to take lecturers into industry so they can understand what is goingon. They need to be free to come and go, interacting with our own training people as the classes are held in the company. The lady concerned knew as much aboutwhat we were doing, during her time with us, as we knew.
1987.
Mr Beggs:Have the lessons been passed to the CCEA and the Department of Education?
1988.
Mr McGonigle:We have not passed it. Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education may have passed it but I do not know.
1989.
The Chairperson:Mr Beggs may be getting at the issue that there is a general problem of fewer andfewer people studying mathematics and physics at GCSE and A Level. There may even be issues on standards at those stages. You have referred to that. As a company using mathematics, physics and scientific skills, what do you think could be done to the Northern Ireland school curriculum, which is currently up for review?
1990.
Mr McGonigle:If we could influence, or help in any way, we would be delighted to do so. Young people find mathematics, science, physics and thosetypes of subjects really difficult. We are probably gettingpeople at the lower end of the GCSE scale because the others are going on to further and higher education.
1991.
Ms Phillips:You really need to have the teachersconnecting with industry. You need that partnership and the time for that. I think that is the key.
1992.
Mr Carrick:The contribution your firm makes towards the economic and social development of our country is very much appreciated and valued.
1993.
This whole question of education, training and industry is vitally important to this Committee. In your recommendations you have identified, "gaps in the curriculum" which we have been touching on. You have identified gaps in careers advice and clear gaps in the core basic engineering skills. Bearing that in mind, how responsive is the current education and training system to skills gaps identified in the engineering sector? What should the education and training system be offering to ensure that your particular demand for skills would be met in the immediate and more distantfuture? In your opinion, what method of skills-forecastingis the most successful? Finally, what are your views on the current graduate skills in relation to the needs of your industry and how best would they be altered to address your needs?
1994.
Ms Phillips:Regarding responsiveness, it took a lot of encouraging to get the teachers onboard. We almost got to the wire and said "we would prefer to change college to be quite honest with you". However, we did not give in. We had another alternative but we thought, "No, we are going to persevere with this". It took a bit of time but they did come through, but it was hard work. We spent a lot of time arguing, auditing andproviding feedback to them about the quality andservice they were providing - an example was sometimes teachersnot turning up for classes and things like that. So, we got through all of that, they came round and this is theresult. The result in that one sector was first class for us.
1995.
Mr Carrick:Are they now a willing partner, or are they still being dragged screaming and kicking?
1996.
Mr McGonigle:It is half-and-half. With mathematics,and that type of project where you get integration, participation and partnership, that is fineand we are delighted. But looking at the lecturers on the industrial side, the problem is when those gentlemen and ladies go back into classes after leaving us. These people have a bit of a break but are soon back down to business in their own classes.
1997.
We had been very close to some of them, because some were in our business, but when they go back to lecturing they have no time because they are working on other things and getting involved in other projects. Our project is the least of their concerns because they have a different focus.
1998.
Mr Carrick:There is a weakness in the structure.
1999.
Mr McGonigle:Yes there is.
2000.
Ms Phillips:There are different targets. Theyhave targets to achieve, which are education targetsand not necessarily education and transfer of knowledge targetsand that is the problem.
2001.
The skills forecasting is a good question. It isdifficult enough for us to manpower plan for 12 monthsahead. On the skill side, the best approach is to continueto work on the basic skills. We bring people in at abasic level and can develop them - most organisationsdo. But if they do not have that strong foundation, it is very hard to instil that into people when they come in at an older age.
2002.
Mr McGonigle:We now have to take retired people in to help us, people who are ex-Government training centre instructors. We have been running a nightshift, training people on the nightshift as well as on the dayshift. However, there are no trainers around. Colleges will say "it will take us six months to get this going" or "we do not do that anymore". I am talking here about the colleges, that have taken over the GTCs. There are just no people there anymore. We have used 7 or 8 former GTC instructors, who had long since retired, to try and get the skills again. We will have problems when these people decide they are not going to do this any longer.
2003.
The Chairperson:Can you clarify that? These people were instructors in training centres and are on your workforce now because you cannot get other people by the normal means.
2004.
Mr McGonigle:We have seven instructors ofour own and we are not going to employ new instructorsbecause we can cope in normal circ*mstances. In the past, when we got a huge intake like now, we looked to the GTCs and the Training and Employment Agency, but we cannot do that any more. You go along to the technical colleges, Newtownabbey, for instance and find they do not do engineering any more. Dundonald GTC is no longer available and Felden is not doing anything in engineering any more. We have not gone to Craigavon because it is a bit far away from us. Wethen start to look for instructors. We find that the only way the T&EA can help is to give names of people who have retired and help us recruit those people.
2005.
Mr Carrick:I would invite you down to Craigavon. It is only 30 miles down the motorway.
2006.
Ms Phillips:The cost of that service has substantially increased since the Government training centreshave closed. The difference in the cost is incredible. Where we would bring people in-house to do it, other companies would not be able to afford that cost.
2007.
Mr Carrick;The other issue is the graduate skills. What are your views, and how best can they be altered, if necessary, to address your needs?
2008.
Ms Phillips:This year we shall be bringing in35 to 40 graduates. We have just completed our advertisement, and will be ready to interview in about four weeks. The difference with graduates now is that they are spread across the organisation. They are not solely engineering graduates, but business graduates too.
2009.
Our difficulty with graduates is that the IT industry is so attractive. They pay much more than we do to bring graduates in. Many IT companies go into the university and take the whole class, thinking theyare sorted. That is another example of people not thinking in the longer term. On the graduate side, we are probablynot the most attractive employer, but we shall bring in30 to 40 graduates this year. I am not sure how to answerthe question of improving the skills of the graduate intake.
2010.
Mr McGonigle:In the past we took in mainly engineering graduates, taking a mixture from Queen's and the University of Ulster roughly in equal numbers. The graduates of both universities were of a very high standard and we did not have any complaints. Having said that, we probably felt we were not as close to theuniversities as we would have liked. There was perhapsnot enough industrial involvement between ourselves and the university. Probably neither of us knew where the graduates were going.
2011.
Along with Queen's and the University of Ulsterat Jordanstown we started the Integrated GraduateDevelopment Scheme (MSc) in Northern Ireland, which is a model from Warwick University. We make an inputinto all the subject matter. Once a year an advisory board meets in Queen's University and we contribute to that, but there is not the integration we would like.
2012.
Mr Carrick: Has that supply diminished? Are youtaking 35 because that is all you need, or can you not get the engineering graduates?
2013.
Ms Phillips:That is all we need, and not many of those will be engineering graduates. There will be a mixture.
2014.
Mr McGonigle:A number of years ago we brought in hundreds at a time, but we have got to apoint now where we have eased back. The same numbersare no longer required in those functions.
2015.
Mrs Carson:I was delighted to hear your presentation today. It was a breath of fresh air to learn that you have a full order book and that your problem is needing people but being unable to get them. The message has come through quite clearly today that something is failing in the education system.
2016.
I was very impressed with the example you gave of the BIFHE grouping. The thing that vexed me was the acceptance of failure on the part of the people andstaff you were dealing with in the educational establishment. They were quite prepared for failure, and that represents something radically wrong in the teachingprofession. Teachers should go for achievement and not accept failure. If you accept failure, you will get failure.
2017.
I was also interested in the number of women. You are having a problem bringing in women. Do you have women in the senior ranks going out to girls' schools and girls' classes in mixed schools? Would targeting girls on their own achieve anything?
2018.
Having visits to your factory site for a fun day, even at primary-school level, would mean you are achieving something people can see. If you bring children from primary school, never mind secondary school, they are aware from an early age. Are you doing anything like that, perhaps through families?
2019.
Ms Phillips:On the family side, we have a full exhibition at the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum open to all, so anyone who visits the transport side of the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum will see the flight experience. It tells you all about Bombardier Aerospace and Shorts and all the roles in the company.There are various examples of engineering in the display.
2020.
The CD-ROM is going to all of the schools. There is high teacher input into that CD-ROM, whichis about careers in this industry. The career window work that we are doing with career web is another thingthat is going to be open to all students and parents because it will be on the Internet.
2021.
We do not specifically visit girls' schools. We do a lot of school visits and careers talks, but this maybe something we could take away and pay more attentionto. It is very hard. We had a couple of functions with a good female representation, but overall there is only a 10% female representation in the company. We could do something more ourselves on that front.
2022.
Mrs Carson:You should try to encourage pro- active work. If you sent out a smartly dressed womaninto the school to give a careers advice talk, you might be surprised at the response.
2023.
Mr McGonigle:We talked to the Engineering Training Council about this. When we got one or twoyoung ladies in as apprentices they were in the minority,particularly when they went down to the factory floor where there are 3,000 or 4,000 men.
2024.
We thought that perhaps the T&EA, the Engineering Training Council and ourselves could do something to get a group through at the one time. They could be self-supporting, supporting each other rather than one young lady there on her own.
2025.
The Chairperson:You have talked very well onissues at apprenticeship level and issues relating tograduates. What about the in between level - the sub-degree level, technicians, HNDs or foundation degrees? Is there a gap in supply at that level? How do you feelabout your intake at that level, both in terms of quantityand quality?
2026.
Mr McGonigle:We take the HND as equivalentto a pass degree, and count all as graduates. In our apprenticeship scheme we encourage apprentices to do their HND and, if they are capable, to go on and get a degree. If they get a degree, we again encourage them to get a Master's degree.
2027.
Carol mentioned the adult apprenticeship, and people who are semi-skilled can become skilled. They can also go to college and end up with a degree or Master's degree also. People on the shop floor, and people who have come through as apprentices, a lot ofthem are now in very senior positions within the company.There are bridges the whole way through.
2028.
Ms Phillips:One of the areas that we have had some experience in is external recruitment, particularly in the professional functions like procurement. We had great difficulty in getting people, after interview, with the experience and knowledge of procurement policies and how to negotiate. We have some examples of thatin finance, and work and material planning is a function/department within the company. There has been somuch investment and technology has moved on in everypart of the company, it is very hard to get people with theexperience. We have had to do a lot of re-training in-house, and bring in people at a different level and train them up.
2029.
The Chairperson:I get the impression thatBombardier Aerospace, Shorts could expand more rapidlyif they could recruit more people. Are you constrained by the supply of available labour at those particular skill levels, particularly apprenticeship level?
2030.
Ms Phillips:The constraint is the speed withwhich they get to a level of productivity that is required. I would not like to say that we would take in a lot more people if they were there. However, we would move faster and better if the people we were getting werebetter. We have to spend a lot more time on learning curves, bringing people up to speed on the training front.
2031.
The Chairperson:That has been immensely helpful. Thank you both very much for coming and giving your valuable time. We appreciate what youhave said and will study the handouts and figures closely.We wish you well in the future and hope that your business thrives.
2032.
Ms Phillips:Thank you very much.
2033.
Mr Byrne:May I make one point before Ms Phillips and Mr McGonigle go? This has been one of the most interesting sessions relating to training and skills needs. It would be good if this Committee could go and visit their training facility, to see how it is done on the ground.
2034.
Mr McGonigle:We would be absolutely delighted.
2035.
Mr Carrick:That would be a useful exercise.
2036.
Mrs Carson:Mr McGonigle said that they did not give their findings about the problems they were having with the college. It might be worthwhile if they could formulate something and forward it to theDepartment, or ourselves, to get it into the wider domain.
2037.
Mr McGonigle:I agree with you entirely. I think Kevin Chambers, the Dean of Technology at the Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education, has sent a report in. We could certainly follow it up.
2038.
The Chairperson:Thank you very much.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 1 March 2001
Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mrs Carson
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mr Hay
Mrs Nelis
Witnesses:
Ms J Gormley) Qualifications and
Mr J Lavery) Curriculum Authority
2039.
The Chairperson:I welcome you on behalf ofthe Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment Committee. Thank you for coming. We want to hear more about the work of the Qualifications and CurriculumAuthority (QCA). This is part of our inquiry on how the training system works, or perhaps does not work, here in Northern Ireland, as regards industrial and economic development. We apologise for running a bit late. We were dealing with the Executive programme fund bids, which are an area of great interest.
2040.
Ms Gormley:Thank you very much. I will give a brief introduction. For our purposes, and I hope for yours too, it might be helpful to start with a brief explanation of how the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority (QCA) came to operate in Northern Ireland.
2041.
Prior to the Education Act 1997, the National Council for Vocational Qualifications (NCVQ) wasresponsible for the development of a vocational qualification framework and for the occupational standards upon which those qualifications were based. In 1996,the NCVQ had already established a number of regionaloffices throughout England and Wales, in order tohelp, advise and promote the whole concept of vocationalqualifications on a regional basis. In 1996, it was agreed with the Training and Employment Agency thatthe time was right to establish a similar regional facility in Northern Ireland. The current QCA team is originatedfrom the NCVQ team.
2042.
Initially, we were responsible for advising onand promoting National Vocational Qualifications (NVQs)in Northern Ireland and for providing quality assurance in respect of those qualifications. The Education Act changed things for us, although we had a relatively easy transition in Northern Ireland because our focusremained on NVQs. However, we now had the additionalstatutory regulatory responsibility, and our work movedfrom a promoting role to a regulation auditing and policing one.
2043.
Our main area of work is quality assurance. Mr Lavery is part of our quality audit team and we will take questions about the monitoring of NVQs and the handling of complaints about the system. We also provide guidance, advice and support to employers in Northern Ireland, and we provide information and customer services.
2044.
We also provide a watching brief on the development of national occupational standards, on which qualifications are based. We scrutinise each project on the development of occupational standards to ensure that the Northern Ireland dimension has been consideredand to ensure that relevant parties in Northern Ireland have been informed.
2045.
Over the past five years, we have provided advice to Government and other bodies on all matters concerning NVQs and key skills and how they relate to work-based training and qualifications. We have also provided advice on other vocational qualifications and on a number of initiatives such as the childcare training strategy, the qualifications aspect of New Deal andother Government-funded programmes. We have helpedto devise a funding formula for key skills and other qualifications and provided advice on unitisation and credit matters, working closely with the Northern Ireland Credit Accumulation and Transfer System.
2046.
We have also held a series of consultation events,at which we meet employers, training providers and users. We hear their views on the NVQ system, which allows us to address the issues raised and ensure that Northern Ireland's interests are considered nationally.
2047.
We also regularly produce reports and other relevant guidance material, especially for the Northern Ireland audience. I draw your attention to the pack that we have brought with us today. It is a series of casestudy materials, giving advice and guidance to employersimplementing NVQs. We work with other regulatory bodies, including the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment in Northern Ireland, regulatory partners in Scotland and Wales and our owncolleagues in the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority,in London.
2048.
We have established an awarding body forum in Northern Ireland through which we regularly meetbodies that offer National Vocational Qualifications. Thatis supplemented by the ongoing monitoring done by the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority's audit branch. To hear views on the system and to develop policy, we engage regularly with employers and sectoral representative groups, including sectoral training councils. We work closely with the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment; the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, on Government-funded programmes with employers; the Training and Employment Agency; and the Education and Training Inspectorate, with whom we share all the findings of our quality audit work.
2049.
Mr Beggs:The lines between the worlds of academia and vocational training seem to be blurring.Academia cannot exist on its own - it should be relatedto the world of work. Why are there three organisations that look after training and educational standards in Northern Ireland? Would it not be better to have one organisation, especially following the development ofvocational A levels? There seems to be a blurring of thedistinction. People's skills, whether gained in a vocationalor an academic setting, should be equally recognised.
2050.
Ms Gormley:You have identified three bodies. There are two regulatory bodies operating in Northern Ireland - the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority and the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment. Obviously, there are other regulatorybodies in the rest of the United Kingdom. The EducationAct 1997 brought the National Council for VocationalQualifications together with the School Curriculum andAssessment Authority, in a bid to end the divide betweenacademic and vocational or occupational qualifications.
2051.
Our role in Northern Ireland relates to thepost-accreditation monitoring of National Vocational Qualifications. The development of the qualifications frameworkis taken forward by the Council for theCurriculum, Examinations and Assessment, the Qualifications andCurriculum Authority and the Qualifications, Curriculum andAssessment Authority for Wales (ACCAC). Therefore, the three regulatory bodies work together. TheEducation Act 1997 sets out the remitand responsibilities of the Qualifications and CurriculumAuthority and it seemed fit that we should continue the work that we were doing on National Vocational Qualifications. The rationale for that may be found in the legislation.
2052.
Mr Carrick:The Committee is trying to establishthe efficiency and effectiveness of the education system,and how well people can progress from training toindustry. Do you believe that there is still a demarcation or a gap between education and training and the demandsof industry? If so how can that be addressed?
2053.
Ms Gormley:I will confine my remarks to qualifications. Education and training both lead to qualifications, but they permeate many other facets of our lives. However, the issue of parity of esteem or equivalency needs to be addressed. We have difficultygetting to grips with the appropriate language ourselves.Equivalency can suggest that one qualification is the same as another. However, the qualifications in the framework are, in fact, quite different from each other. They should be different; they attest to different things. In our paper we provided you with an overview of the qualifications framework that showed the two ends of the spectrum. General or academic qualifications attest to knowledge, whereas occupational qualifications are designed specifically to attest to skills and competence.
2054.
The qualifications framework will go some way towards addressing the language issue. More should be done to ensure sure that employers understand and use a common language. In Northern Ireland, for example, employers still refer to O levels, that indicates how much we need to do. Employers have a good graspnow of what a National Vocational Qualification (NVQ) attests to. The middle pathway that we referred to inthe framework - the work on other vocational-related qualifications - might extend people's thinking a little about where all the other types of qualification come in. The sooner that employers make reference to the skills that they require rather than the qualifications that they are looking for, the sooner we will move the whole agenda forward.
2055.
Mr Hay:Does your organisation believe that there is an overlap or duplication of qualifications in the education and training system in Northern Ireland? How could that be addressed?
2056.
Ms Gormley:That was recognised at the formation of the national qualifications framework, at the heart of which was rationalisation. It was clear to Government and others that there was duplication of qualifications. It will be a painful process, particularly for awarding bodies that must go through the process of submitting themselves and their qualifications for accreditation. At that stage, the regulatory bodies will look jointly at those qualifications to see whether they meet the needs of Northern Ireland, England andWales and whether they have a national and internationalcurrency beyond that. Frankly, if they have no such currency, they will not be within the national qualifications framework. In England, particularly, that has implications for funding, because it was suggested that only those qualifications that have met the criteria to be included in the qualifications framework will, in future, attract funding.
2057.
Mr Lavery:The United Kingdom Government have asked for rationalisation of the National Training Organisations (NTOs), which map out the standardsfor the various industrial sectors. They are also consideringthe rationalisation of vocational awards, which have been around for a long time.
2058.
Mr Beggs:Will that rationalisation automaticallyoccur in Northern Ireland or will we have to initiate it?
2059.
Ms Gormley:The rationalisation will apply if Northern Ireland continues to use the national qualifications framework.
2060.
The Chairperson:The way that you framed that response implies that there is some thinking thatwe might not. Is there a debate about that at the moment?
2061.
Ms Gormley:In our thinking, there is no debate.It has not been suggested to us that we might not adopt the national qualifications framework or that there should be a parallel or different framework in Northern Ireland.
2062.
Mr Byrne:The Committee is beginning to come to terms with the complexity and multiplicity of training qualifications and standards. There are two pathways, the vocational General National Vocational Qualifications (GNVQs) and the occupational NVQ. What is the role of the Training and Employment Agency in relation to the NTOs and QCA in drawing up standards and parameters for courses? There is some concern that there is no standardisation across the delivery of the courses or between different training organisations. There is real concern about how we measure the quality of training. We must think of thetrainees, be they young people or long-term unemployed.
2063.
Have you a view about the quality or merit of GNVQs in comparison with, say, BTEC Nationals? What is your view of the content and outcomes of the GNVQs? Has there been any recent quality testing of the outcome of the work of training organisations in NVQs?
2064.
Ms Gormley:You have raised the issue of quality. At present, there is a review taking place of the NTOs and their UK-wide remit. They were originally established to draw up the occupational standards upon which qualifications, particularly NVQs, were based.Over the years, people have asked whether NTOs engagewith employers or whether they really represent employers. There has been particular concern that employers in Northern Ireland were not engaged. QCA has set about ensuring that that happens. QCA fulfils a liaison role between NTOs, sectoral training councils and, more importantly, sectors that are not represented in the sectoral training council network. There is a vast array of sectors, such as the community, voluntary, health and childcare sectors, that are not part of the priority skill areas that are being identified by the Training and Employment Agency. There are a number of areas that are recognised as sectors but are not part of sectoral training councils.
2065.
Through the standards development programme,the QCA has ensured that there is effective consultationin Northern Ireland with all those sectors. That ensuresthat when standards are developed the specific legislative,geographical and other issues to do with Northern Ireland are taken into consideration. With regard to standards, QCA is satisfied that they are taking the Northern Ireland perspective into account and are meeting the needs of employers.
2066.
The Training and Employment Agency has engagedwith sectoral training councils in Northern Irelandto help develop sector-specific training and identify specific training needs, which are then matched with the NTO standards that are being developed for NVQs and other qualifications. That produces programmes such as modern apprenticeships and traineeships. That is the mechanism. The Training and Employment Agency engages the work of NTOs where it sees it as being of relevance to Northern Ireland and adopts the same frameworks and models. The funding might alter because Northern Ireland might have its own priorities and skills agenda.
2067.
Mr Lavery will deal with the delivery arrangements. I am inviting him to make a comment about the other qualifications that you have mentioned, although we do not have a remit.
2068.
Mr Byrne:Considering the role of the QCA and the role of the Training and Employment Agency as a co-ordinating body, who takes the lead in standard accreditation and monitoring of NVQs and GNVQs?
2069.
Ms Gormley:The QCA takes the lead in relation to the work that it does as a regulatory body.However, the development and design of training programmes, the establishment of training providers, therecognition of training arrangements and the funding of training are not in the remit of QCA. They are within the agency's remit.
2070.
Mr Lavery:NVQs measure the outcome of the training and the assessment of it. The training itself is monitored through the Training and Employment Agency's staff. They fund that and monitor the funding for that training. When NVQs were in vogue around 1993, the then Secretary of State for Education, GillianShephard, asked for the regional offices' views becauseit was noticed that centres were not performing to an acceptable level for NVQs.
2071.
At that time awarding bodies were not carrying out the quality assurance regime as they should have been to ensure that every award met its expected standard. Since 1996, QCA has visited centres and identified key areas. A number of centres were falling down in some areas. I will not go into the detail but we can provide it if it is required.
2072.
There were three or four specific areas in which centres were falling down because the awarding bodies - the people who issue the certificates - were not monitoring the work on the ground.
2073.
We have made sure that awarding bodies do nowcarry out that monitoring work, and we substantively test that work by visiting centres and awarding bodies. On the final quality of the award, we like to think that all awards involve the same amount of rigour, while still allowing flexibility for the training to be provided by whatever means are possible.
2074.
NVQs are provided in many different areas.You have the workplace, through employment. You have thecolleges, through full-time education and work placements, and you have training providers. People can spend a few days with the training provider and a number of days in work placements. NVQs are designed to be flexible. Some people tend to think that there is a differencein what goes into an NVQ, but the NVQ doesnot measurewhat goes in - it measures what comes out. It measures whether a person is competent. We liketo think, through the systems that we have in place to ensure that the awarding bodies quality assure everyoneto the same standards, that the qualification that people receive will receive the same level of recognition across the UK.
2075.
Another organisation has responsibility for lookingafter the quality and content of GNVQs. The standards for GNVQs at the time that they were initially designed were seen as relevant to the sectors. I know that the engineering GNVQ was seen as relevant. However, as you say, there are alternatives. There are BTECs, forexample. As I have not done any research into it, I wouldnot like to make any general comment at this stage.
2076.
Ms Gormley:There is a nationally agreed programme of scrutiny. Although we are saying that we do not have a direct remit for the quality of GNVQs,we are involved in the overall national programme. We are engaged in some aspects of that work in relation to Northern Ireland.
2077.
Mr Byrne:It is perceived that there is great variety in the quality of outcomes. I do not believe that there is enough scrutiny that is in the interest of young people. In some training organisations it is relatively easy to get an NVQ, while in others it is quite difficult. Somebody will have to be brave enough to say "Let us have real standardisation".
2078.
Finally, I want to comment on the practice of depending on the NVQ and GNVQ organisations to do the monitoring. For GNVQs, there used to be a system whereby a moderator was appointed to make three visits per year to a college. That is now reduced to one. Given that it is now largely in-course assessment, I amnot sure that we are moving towards better standardisation.
2079.
Mr Lavery:I will take up the point about the NVQs. People constantly tell us that there are differing standards. When we go to check, we find that thecriteria laid down by the standards body have been met.We openly invite anyone to provide us with informationregarding differing standards in NVQs. We will follow up any such claim. We are keen to stamp out any difference in the standard of the qualification.
2080.
Mrs Nelis:Thank you for your presentation. You spoke earlier about the workplace, the colleges and the training providers. I want to ask about theelement ofthe work that involves identifying vocational qualificationsto meet the understanding and knowledgeneeded for particular jobs. On which jobs or sectors do you focus?
2081.
Ms Gormley:Is that a reference to the work on the development of other vocational qualifications and technical certificates?
2082.
Mrs Nelis:Yes.
2083.
Ms Gormley:That was a more interestingdevelopment. It stemmed primarily from the Departmentfor Education and Employment's request to QCA to start identifying vocational qualifications that will be aligned more closely to NVQs. In Northern Ireland, we have told the Department for Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment that we will keep a brief on those developments, because theDepartment has asked QCA to work closely with NTOs.NTOs havebeen asked to begin to identify, with the awarding bodies, what existing qualifications might, with some minor tweaking, attest to the knowledge and understandingrequirements of NVQs. BTECs are a good example of this.
2084.
The work taken forward in England has beenspecifically developed to support the review and reformof the modern apprenticeship frameworks in that country.For some time now quite a number of the modern apprenticeship frameworks have identified a specific, knowledge-based qualification that underpins and supports the NVQ. That is recognition that in somecases, particularly in the modern apprenticeship arrangements, young people will need an input, not just an output. It is not sufficient to assess them as competent; they need some training input as well.
2085.
In programmes like the modern apprenticeship the standardisation, will become much more evident as it rolls out in traineeships. Young people will have a definite foundation in relation to their vocational qualification, and they will move, quite rightfully, into a proper workplace where they will prove occupational competence.
2086.
Moreover, we have found of course that when NVQs are awarded and delivered in the right context, which is the workplace, standardisation is rarely an issue. It is not in an employer's interests to fail to attain the highest possible benchmark in NVQ awards.
2087.
You are correct that it is quite difficult to measurethe amount of input. We must recognise that it is possible to find different standards in the amount of input provided to a young person. Our rule of thumb is to ensure that they have gained the necessary level of competence at the output stage at least, no matter how they may have achieved it. However, we do not have a great deal of responsibility over the training and input that they receive. I hope that that has answered your question about development.
2088.
Mrs Nelis:I could ask about much more.
2089.
Ms Gormley:As I said, we will continue to monitor it and to advise the Department.
2090.
The Chairperson:How do you perform the auditing role, which is crucial to your remit, since it is obviously a difficult thing to do? How do you satisfy yourself that the standards in Northern Ireland are the same as those in England, Scotland and Wales? Is there any interaction with your counterparts? Do the auditors move back and forth in the same way that inspectors do in schools and universities?
2091.
Mr Lavery:The original team of auditors was based in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The auditors employed by the Qualifications, Curriculumand Assessment Authority for Wales still work alongside us.We are occasionally invited to help them carry out small pieces of work in Wales, and that maintains their level.
2092.
We satisfy ourselves that standards are the same in Northern Ireland by visiting all the awarding bodies operating here with colleagues from England. There are only two of us in Northern Ireland, and it would be virtually impossible to cover all of the awarding bodies by ourselves. Therefore, the burden of work is spread across the whole team, and there are currently 13 of us in England and Northern Ireland.
2093.
Ms Gormley:Each year we devise a nationalprogramme of monitoring with our colleagues in England.In other words, we decide with them what the prioritiesshould be, and the awards and awarding bodies that should be looked at. We use sources of information derived fromNorthern Ireland, for example,complaints or issues that we have repeatedly addressed in centres inNorthern Ireland. All of that is used to inform the programme, so that we can specify the awards and awarding bodies that we need to focus on. That programme is shared nationally. Therefore there is a considerable degree of interchange among officers who are working on it.
2094.
Mr Lavery:In our Belfast office there is a filing cabinet containing what we classify as intelligence- those pieces of information that were mentioned earlier and which can be of a varying standard. Over time we try to build up a picture and act on it. I hope that we are making a difference.
2095.
The Chairperson:Is your intelligence - or whatever way you want to put it - telling you that the "problem" is getting bigger or smaller?
2096.
Mr Lavery:The problem is getting smaller because we are now a regulator, which I should havementioned. Our documents have changed over the years.The two original NVQ criteria and guidance, and the original eight-page common accord, were couched in broad terms. As long as people worked within those guidelines, they were not breaking any rules.
2097.
In 1997, we created another set of rules that tightened things, but still allowed for deviation. We have recently introduced a new set that tightens things even more, and those are just bedding in. The problems are getting smaller as we identify them and put controls in place to stop them occurring.
2098.
Mr Byrne:Resources are an underlying issue to which none of us has referred. Finances are vital if we are to have quality NVQs or GNVQs for vocational and educational training. We have not mentioned that. Are the finances generous or less than generous? Are they a constraint on the quality of the input, assessing and examining?
2099.
Ms Gormley:Sources advise us that resourcesimpose considerable constraint. For example, the principle upon which NVQs are based is that they shouldbe taught with the employment of resources and at a time and pace that best meet the needs of the individual - not those of the programmes.
2100.
As soon as we start to package the programme into a resource that is deliverable to a vast number of people, we immediately have a dilemma. If we take those in this room as examples, one person might take three weeks to achieve a fairly high level vocational award in an area in which they had been working for several years, although someone new to that discipline could take a considerable length of time. That example is simplistic, but that is our difficulty.
2101.
The Training and Employment Agency and the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment are the bodies responsible for the funding formulae. People tell us that they experience difficulties, particularly on the time-bound constraints of a programme. They find programme constraints more restrictive than those created by the funding, but the two are intertwined.
2102.
Mr Lavery:One complaint made by the trainers in the centres I recently visited is that the time constraint changes every year, putting them under pressure.
2103.
The Chairperson:The Committee would like to thank Mr Lavery and Ms Gormley. Your submission was immensely interesting. Thank you too for all thematerial you previously submitted. The area of monitoring qualifications is critically important, and I have little doubt that the Committee will return to it in the future, so I am sure that we will be calling on you again.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 8 March 2001
Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Mr J Kelly
Mrs Nelis
Witnesses:
Mr A Barron) Galen (Pharmaceutical) Division
2104.
The Chairperson:Thank you for coming today.It is very kind of you to attend at short notice.
2105.
We are keen to hear about some of the factors you feel have helped to contribute to the success of your company, especially with reference to training as that is part of our inquiry. I understand there are some special issues regarding people who have backgrounds in chemistry, which you might like to go into.
2106.
Mr Barron:I will give you a brief overview of the company and tell you some of the difficulties.
2107.
Basically, Galen Holdings was formed locally by our chairman, Dr Allen McClay, 30 years ago and is still going strong. It has expanded rapidly and now hasa turnover of £160 million. It was £80 million last October,and since the acquisition of Warner Chilcott, the female health care company, we have doubled our turnover.
2108.
We are now a global company based in Northern Ireland, Britain and America. In Northern Ireland there are five subsidiaries. Galen is the non-steriledivision, whichmakes analgesics and antibiotics, and is based in Portadown. Also there is the clinical trials division, whichdoes stage-three clinical trials for the multi-nationalssuch as Glaxo, Bowringer and companies such as those.Also there is SynGal, which is one of our larger chemicalsynthesis divisions, based in Craigavon. In Belfast wehave Q Chem, which is based in the School of Chemistryat Queen's University. Galen owns 76% of the sharesin this company and it is a small-scale chemical synthesisunit. Finally, there is Ivex Pharmaceutical in Larne, which manufactures sterile products such as cardio-vascular units and intravenous drips.
2109.
There are three divisions in America - Clinical Trials Services (CTS), which is a sister company of CTS here, Warner Chilcott, which I mentioned earlier, and Interactive Clinical Technologies Incorporate (ICTI) - and they focus on Northern Ireland. In 1997, the company shares were floated on the Dublin and London stock markets at £1·70 and are now worthabout £9·50. Galen now has 1,800 employees worldwide.We have the best market capitalisation in Northern Ireland and have overtaken the Viridian Group. That is a brief background to the company.
2110.
I will focus on the main concern, which is chemistry. I am pleased that the number of entrants intothe School of Chemistry in Queen's University, Belfast(QUB) has improved this year. There are still difficulties in recruiting analysts, chemists, and developmentchemists.
2111.
The main recruitment problem is synthetic organic chemists, which is a specialised area in the formulation of new drugs. Large multinational customers,like Glaxo orGilden, might have a new drug for AIDS or breast cancerand would give us the chemical formula, from whichwe would manufacture the drug. They are known as virtual companies. We cannot get appropriate personnelin Northern Ireland; they are few and far between. We need people that have science degrees, or PhDs, in chemistry. From Queen's University we recruit pharmacists, pharmacologists, biochemists and chemists.
2112.
Recruitment concerns stem from sociologicalproblems. I have found that children decide to do O-levelsand A-levels in physics, chemistry and maths, but theydo not know what to do afterwards. If a parent has gone into medicine or dentistry, the children are discouragedfrom a career in chemistry. Instead, parents and peers encourage them to go into medicine or dentistry. They are unsure about a career in chemistry.
2113.
There are also not many openings in NorthernIreland, apart from Norbrook and ourselves. We currently have a large IDB assisted expansion programmein the pipeline. We need over 150 chemists, particularly in chemical synthesis which will be based in Craigavon.
2114.
Our chairman, Dr Allen McClay, has gone to great lengths to promote chemistry in the Province. He has set up the Dr McClay Trust, to which he has donated millions of pounds, to promote chemistry.
2115.
We have gone to the extent that, last summer,we talked to the Western Education and Library Board and gave 15 chemistry teachers a tour of our Portadownsite. We asked them what career they envisaged having with their chemistry degrees, and 99% of them said 'chemistry teachers'. I found it shocking that that was the advice that they were giving to pupils. The problem seems to lie with parents, social peers or the chemistry teachers themselves.
2116.
We now recruit staff from Spain, Germany and France - only two weeks ago we offered a job to a Czech.
2117.
The Chairperson:Can you give us any numbers?
2118.
Mr Barron:There are probably eight or nine currently. SynGal has only been operational for two years. Q Chem has been going for a number of years. We are in a period of expansion, but we will be in serious trouble if we do not fill those posts next year. I have had various meetings with other directors of the company.
2119.
As well as that, we cannot get people for junior posts. They are few and far between. There may be an issue regarding the package of benefits we are offering, and we are addressing that at the moment. It could be argued that Northern Ireland is not big in pharmaceuticals. Dublin and Cork are the big areas. I think there are 27 chemical/pharmaceutical firms in Cork, and we are sadly lacking here.
2120.
Mrs Nelis:What is the religious breakdown of your workforce?
2121.
Mr Barron:I could not say.
2122.
Mrs Nelis:Would you forward the information to me?
2123.
Mr Barron:Yes.
2124.
Mrs Nelis:Have you sought recruits from Dublin?
2125.
Mr Barron:Yes. We advertise in the 'The Irish Times' and on the Internet.
2126.
Mrs Nelis:You were saying how difficult it was to recruit and that you had to bring people in from overseas.
2127.
Mr Barron:We advertise in many forms ofmedia. We use our own web site and a specific chemistryweb site. We advertise in the 'Belfast Telegraph', 'The Irish News' and the 'News Letter'. There is not much response from Northern Ireland. In the south of Irelandwe use 'The Irish Times'. There is also a political problemand, as I hinted at earlier, our benefits system, but we know that it is not entirely due to that. We are also advertising in England.
2128.
For example, in Cork, where there are many pharmaceutical firms, people may be interested in moving to a better job. When they find out it is Galen they ask where it is. When they find out it is Northern Ireland they do not want to come here. They ask where abouts Galen is in Northern Ireland, and when you say "Portadown", they say "No chance". It is a big difficultyand it only takes one tiny bit of political instability or civil unrest to upset recruitment. We found that the husbands are willing to move but that it is the wife or spouse who is unwilling to move. That is another issue. We get one or two people from companies such as Pharmacea in County Cork. A lot of our people go south to Sligo, and Galway.
2129.
Mr Carrick:I live in Portadown - I feel quite safe there, as you would maybe understand. We are not hiding from the fact that we have difficulties. We are trying to overcome them. You referred to the meetingyou had with 18 teachers from the Western Board. Sincethe Southern Education and Library Board (SELB) serves Portadown, Craigavon and the general area, I wonder what representations you have made to them in connection with your shortage of labour supply? In particular, what are your links with Banbridge Academy, Portadown College, Lurgan College and the Upper Bann Institute of Further and Higher Education? As a Portadown person I can say that we value the contribution that Galen is making to our area, and Northern Ireland in general. It does seem that there is a macro-image about Galen and that it does not relate to those at grass roots level. If you are going to be recruiting from the local labour market, the links do not appear to be there.
2130.
Mr Barron:The point made concerning the Western Board and the school of chemistry was a political decision whereby we tried to bring in other people. It could easily have resulted in a mixed group from any of the boards. Last Monday of this week, amember of my staff went to meet Dr Audrey McKeownto discuss connections with further and higher institutes. There was a specific question about chemistry and whether they might form a link with Galen to try and promote chemistry. This may be a difficulty, in that the type of chemistry that we are looking for is of a high grade and at present they do not teach chemistry in the grammar schools of Upper Bann.
2131.
Mr Carrick:That difficulty must be overcome. If there is a demand for that type of skill then we must put ourselves in a position to meet that demand and supply those skills for you. Just because there appears to be a difficulty does not mean that there is no way forward. We will have to work to overcome that. How are you trying to encourage grammar schools in the area to look more seriously at the type of chemistry they provide so that their students can move on to Queens University or higher education?
2132.
Mr Barron:We are looking into this. Galen has undergone rapid growth over the last two or three years. SynGal, which did not exist at that time, now has 60people working there. Q Chem had only five people working there and has now become bigger and bigger.It is now moving too fast for us although we are startingto address this. Following the acquisition of WarnerSilcott estates, their influence is pushing us towards morechemistry and the setting up of a new huge laboratoryfor 150 chemists. We are addressing that issue and we will need to talk with the grammar schools. We have lookedto the South, where there are schools of chemistry incounties Mayo and Sligo, and have tried bringing in people from there. We have also brought schoolchildrento have a look. There do not appear to be enough peoplegetting into pure chemistry at Queens although the numbers have increased slightly this year. However, we will need to target the grammar schools.
2133.
Mrs Carson:I am sorry you are having these problems and I am shocked at how great they are. Ionce worked on the Garvaghy road and had no difficultyworking there. I have a son working there at present. However, I hope that it is not all doom and gloom in the Portadown area. I understand your problems in winning over chemistry teachers, especially followingan era when industry was not "nice." That will be a problem for the entire industrial sector in Northern Irelandto overcome. Its purpose will be to educate chemistry teachers and parents, as they want to see BA graduates in jobs that are nice and easy and in which there are no problems and no hassle. They forget about the rewards that the industry has other than just pay.
2134.
You must also build up a better rapport with schools in Northern Ireland because, as a Northern Ireland-based firm, you should be looking to recruit locally.
2135.
I do not think that there is anything wrong with the intellect of the people of Northern Ireland that would make you look elsewhere. Have you considered offering bursaries or scholarships? I know that the services attract some from grammar schools. They find that if they give a bursary or a scholarship then they get the high-fliers. Have you considered that, because it might be one way to get them?
2136.
Mr Barron:It is something we have been talking about. I have been talking to Dr Walker, who is the technical director of Q Chem in Belfast, and he is keen to do something along those lines. We are talking about it at this point in time.
2137.
Mrs Carson:That will not bring anyone in for about three years. If you flag up opportunities it would raise your profile. You should go round all the schools in Northern Ireland.
2138.
Mr Beggs:I suspect that some of your problems stem from society not valuing people who work in industry, and viewing the professions as the be-all and end-all. Can you put on record the kind of wage range you are offering as a starting salary? There should be healthy wages available in order to attract the type of people you are looking for. Wages should not be a problem - or are they?
2139.
Mr Barron:There are very hefty targets to meet. Shareholders want to know exactly what we are doing all the time. Do not get the wrong idea that we are paying poor wages. The wages are not as high as those anywhere else in Britain or Ireland, there is no doubt about it. However, we are addressing that issue as well. A lot of directors are saying that we may be 10% to 20% behind.
2140.
Mr Beggs:Do you think that there are sufficient chemistry courses at higher education levels? Are thereenough applicants for those courses? Recently, representatives from Bombardier said that there was a weakness in the mathematics and engineering sector. Do you perceive reluctance for people to study chemistry at A-level or at university level?
2141.
My final question is about school careers advicefor people going to university. Do you feel that there is aweakness there, and if so what improvements do you suggest? Have you any suggestions from your international contacts? What are they doing differently in related companies in America, to ensure that accurate market information about opportunities is getting to schoolchildren?
2142.
Mr Barron:The salient point is the education system. In my opinion, if there was greater emphasis on chemistry from careers guidance teachers there would be no problem. I know some of the professors in the School of Chemistry, and they would take more students. We have jobs for people. It is a long term objective because we have recently created so many jobs. The reality was that before the Galen group expanded the jobs did not exist. Therefore, people went across the water to where they could use their degreesor PhDs in chemistry or biochemistry. I cannot commenton the systems of our American counterparts. America is the pharmaceutical marketplace - there is no doubt about that. I imagine that chemistry is promoted more in the States, but I cannot say that for certain.
2143.
Mr Beggs:You say that there are opportunities. I would not go into a school and point to a particular subject; I would point out the opportunities. How arecareers guidance teachers flagging up such opportunities?
2144.
Mr Barron:The Western Education and LibraryBoard showed us clearly. I take Mrs Carson's point.My brother is a teacher, and he is completely disillusionedwith the education system. That is a personal thing, but the image that we got was that they did not care one way or another. They were concerned only with getting through their day. It is a terrible thing to say, but theywere not particularly bothered who went where afterwards,as long as they got them their O-levels and A-levels in chemistry.
2145.
Mr J Kelly:I note that operating profits doubledin the first quarter. Could Galen not reflect that in itswages? I know that you are a market undertaking drivenby the City, but I shall not deal with that question now.
2146.
Mr Barron:I must be careful what I say.
2147.
Mr J Kelly:The fact that operating profits doubledin the first quarter leapt out at me when you mentioned the wage situation - it seemed an odd juxtaposition. Pharmaceuticals are obviously a growth industry. Do you have ways of projecting future growth over the next five or 10 years?
2148.
Mr Barron:We had our plans until we acquiredWarner Chilcott. Although that was an acquisition, the Americans think that it was a merger. Many of themare getting on to the board at the moment. As I explained,owing to the diversity of products that we manufacture, we wanted a diverse culture, but they feel that there is more money to be made in America than in Europe, and on the manufacturing side of things as opposed to contract services.
2149.
Mr Kelly:If you can project forward 10 years, you will be in a better position to say that you will need a specific number of chemists. You can offer a better package when you go into schools.
2150.
Mr Barron:I could not really project it any further than the next two or three years. The Q Chem and SynGal synthesis units are combining to form Chemical Synthesis Services (CSS). I could not predict any more than that. There are 150 jobs.
2151.
Mr J Kelly:The Health, Social Services and Public Safety Committee, on which I also serve, has received representation from biochemists, who feel that there has been a grievous drain of personnel from that discipline to the manufacturing side.
2152.
Mr Barron:In Northern Ireland?
2153.
Mr J Kelly:Yes. Some of them go to the South and some to England and elsewhere. That is one of the problems that they face. Qualified people do not go to hospitals but into industrial chemistry.
2154.
Mr Barron:Perhaps you could tell me who they are. I could do with some of them.
2155.
Mr J Kelly:It is an open secret, and that is the problem. It happens because qualified biochemists areso badly paid in hospitals. They find industry more attractive. Quite apart from the attractiveness of the wages,there is a shortage right across the field of chemistry and biochemistry. I am anxious to know whether your company could do anything more than at present to develop the education and training system.
2156.
Mr Barron:I have noted many of the things that have been said here today, the two main issuesbeing bursaries and scholarships and talking to grammar schools. I take that on board, and that will happen.I mentioned our links with Upper Bann Institute. We have had various talks with the School of Chemistry as to how we are going to bring the young people in. My biggest difficulty is with the schoolteachers, who are most influential in telling a child what future to take. I am not sure how to get over that sociological problem. It arises when a child's mother or father is in dentistry or medicine. I do not know how we can change that.
2157.
Mr J Kelly:The old notion of apprenticeship may be relevant. A young man went to serve his apprenticeship because he knew that at the end of five years he was going to get a job as a tradesman. If you planned ahead, you could get people to train in school for chemistry because at the end of that period there would be a job for them. Are you sending a positive message about that?
2158.
Mr Barron:We need to get into the schools again.
2159.
Mr J Kelly:People are looking for security of employment.
2160.
Mr Dallat:I am sure that your visit here has not been wasted. There is someone from the Department sitting behind you in the Public Gallery and, no doubt,your message will be carried back to where it needs to go.Three times you have highlighted the mindset of teachers. You also said that parents may well have beenbrought up in a particular social climate and projected that on to their children.
2161.
Recently, I met some young people who werestudying physics at the North East Institute of Further andHigher Education in Ballymena. They were from aworking-class background and found the subject refreshing, because it was taught in a completely different way,using computers and new technology. Does chemistry have to be all test tubes and Latin?
2162.
Mr Barron:It does not, although it was in my day.
2163.
Mr Dallat:I did not study chemistry, but I observed it - and smelt it - when I walked past. The Committee should listen to you and you need to help us, otherwise this will not change. We have had fifty years of a stuffy education system that survived on 3 A-levels that had no relevance to jobs. We should be radical.
2164.
Mr Barron:I hope that I can benefit from Members' experience. I hoped that the Committee could tell me what I should do. Taking a year out is helpful to students on chemistry or physics courses. They learn a lot about the private sector.
2165.
Mr Dallat:Norbrook Laboratories is the only other company that I know. Do the companies work inisolation, or do they get together to say to the university,"Let us get real and start producing young graduates who are enthusiastic and interested in what we are doing"? Are companies so competitive that they do not talk to each other?
2166.
Mr Barron:We work in total isolation.
2167.
Mr Dallat:I thought that. Should there not be some mechanism to encourage the industry to develop an association that would help to bring about changes?
2168.
Mr Barron:There should, but I do not thinkthat it will happen with Norbrook. If there were involvement from half a dozen pharmaceutical companies in Northern Ireland, it would be possible.
2169.
Mr Dallat:I do not understand that. Do you support the principle of collaboration?
2170.
Mr Barron:It depends on the nature of the chemistry. The pharmaceutical world will not tell anybodyelse what it is doing.
2171.
Mr Dallat:I was enthused by what I heard from somebody who told the Committee that they had goneto the Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education,got the lecturers by the scruff of the neck and practically written the courses for them.
2172.
Mr Barron:If we could do that, I would be delighted.
2173.
Mr Dallat:Should you not go to the Council for the Curriculum, Examination and Assessment, who set all the exams, and mould the way in which young people are made to think in order to pass exams? That would ring the changes, would it not?
2174.
Mr Barron:It is not so much a matter of passing exams. As Mrs Carson said, the intellectual skills exist in Northern Ireland, there is no doubt about that, but the students seem to be taking up pharmacy or other things. We need to move them in the direction of chemistry. We need to inform people that if they get a degree or PhD in chemistry, they can get a job. They do not have to be a schoolteacher. There are many jobs available.
2175.
Mr Dallat:Were all the teachers from the WesternBoard from grammar schools or were some from the secondary sector?
2176.
Mr Barron:They were from the secondary sector mainly.
2177.
The Chairperson:There is a review of the wholecurriculum going on, which will cover chemistry. We are aware of the need to do something about the numbers of people taking mathematics and physics, as the numbers are dropping. I presume that the same has been happening in chemistry.
2178.
Mr Barron:Yes it has, although last year the numbers rose a little due to the work of a professor at Queen's University.
2179.
The Chairperson:What has been happening to the numbers of A-level students studying chemistry?
2180.
Mr Barron:The numbers have remained fairly constant. It is the choices that they make after A-levels that are the problem.
2181.
The Chairperson:Do you want to re-jig the content of the A-level?
2182.
Mr Barron:No.
2183.
The Chairperson:You are concerned about motivation and careers guidance.
2184.
Mr Barron:Yes. Why would someone who isguaranteed a job in dentistry or medicine study chemistrywhen there is no certainty of a job in Northern Ireland when their studies are finished? However, we say that jobs are available to chemistry students.
2185.
The Chairperson:Are there problems attractingpeople with the right experience in postgraduate and postdoctoral research?
2186.
Mr Barron:There are few people availablewho have studied for a PhD or postdoctoral qualification.It is a specific field, which is why we take people from elsewhere in Europe.
2187.
The Chairperson:Is that happening more on the PhD side?
2188.
Mr Barron:It is. In contrast to here, France, for example, has a surplus of chemistry students.
2189.
Mr Beggs:You mentioned the fact that you are now the number one firm in Northern Ireland, as far as market capitalisation is concerned. Did many schoolchildren and teachers involved in careers guidance visit your firm last year?
2190.
Mr Barron:There have not been many. There have been many trips to SynGal, the synthesis unit in Portadown. I do not know exactly how many. Often, the technical managers organise trips.
2191.
Mr Beggs:Are schools unaware of what is happening in industry? Should links be developed at that stage?
2192.
Mr Barron:I do not think that they are aware.Galen should be doing more - there is no doubt about it.
2193.
Mr Beggs:The schools should be doing more, too.
2194.
Mr Barron:If the schools want to approach us, we would be more than happy to show them around and exert as much influence on the teachers as we can. If I were to tell our chairman that there would be a lot of schoolteachers and careers advisors visiting the company, he would be over the moon. He has invested a lot of his own money in promoting chemistry in the Province.
2195.
The Chairperson:Is your company involved in the Northern Ireland Business Education Partnership, which attempts to promote links between schools, FE colleges and business?
2196.
Mr Barron:No.
2197.
The Chairperson:That would seem to be the officialvehicle for many of the things that we have been talking about.
2198.
Mr Barron:I do not want to get the situation out of perspective. In Northern Ireland, we have over 1,000 people working at three sites, and we can fill most of those jobs. We are having difficulties finding "knowledge workers" in chemistry. I am not talking about the rank-and-file employees.
2199.
Mrs Carson:Could you give us a breakdown of your workforce by gender?
2200.
Mr Barron:It would be approximately 50-50. I know that because someone worked out the figures the other day. I had thought that the percentage of females working for the company was higher, because we are presently working out a flexible working hours system.
2201.
Mrs Carson:Is it the same ratio for senior positions?
2202.
Mr Barron:No. It is male-dominated at senior level.
2203.
Mr Beggs:What is the situation at graduate level?
2204.
Mr Barron:It is about 50-50 for graduates, but junior, middle and senior management are male-dominated.
2205.
Mrs Carson:There is a lot of work to be done.
2206.
Mr J Kelly:What is the ratio of professional workers to manual workers in the company?
2207.
Mr Barron:Twenty-five to thirty per cent of the workforce are professionals.
2208.
Mr J Kelly:Would you have any difficulties recruiting manual workers?
2209.
Mr Barron:No. Employees tend to stay in our Portadown site. Conditions are good there. We work in super-clean environments and they seem to like that.
2210.
Mr J Kelly:Would the wages be comparable to other companies?
2211.
Mr Barron:We carry out an annual wage survey. There are many wage bands at shop-floor level. We may not pay the highest wages, but we are up there, and I am confident about our performance in that area. It is in the area of "knowledge workers" that we are slightly behind. However, we are addressing that.
2212.
The Chairperson:Thank you very much for coming. It has been extremely interesting.
2213.
Mr Barron:I hope that I have not painted a picture of doom, gloom and despondency. That is not the case. I must stress that those are the problems, as it were.
2214.
The Chairperson:Your company has the problemof success. It could grow even more rapidly, and that is the key point that we will take away. We have heard similar stories from other major companies. Your situation relates particularly to chemistry, and it has been a useful example for us. As we move through our inquiry, we will want to build that into our considerations. We wish you well and hope that you will be able to build closer links with the schools, further education and higher education establishments.
2215.
Mr Barron:Thank you. I would be more than happy to assist the Committee further, if necessary.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 22 March 2001
Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Mr Hay
Mr R Hutchinson
Ms McWilliams
Mrs Nelis
Witnesses:
Mr T Scott)Department of Higher and FurtherMs D McGill)Education, Training and Employment
2216.
The Chairperson:On behalf of the Committee I welcome you both.
2217.
We are dealing with the consultation document 'Building a Stronger Network: Developing the Role ofNational Training Organisations' and preparing to frame a response to it. We have looked into the backgroundand structure of National Training Organisations (NTOs) inNorthern Ireland and we have found it quite interesting. It is related to the structure of the Sector Training Councils (STC), so amongst other things we would like you to elaborate on, and answer questions on that area.
2218.
Would you like to make any initial statement or summary before we move to questions?
2219.
Mr Scott:The Committee might find it useful ifwe simply said a few words about our background. You have indicated that the structure of STCs in NorthernIreland is interesting. That is always a frightening word to use.
2220.
In 1989-90 the industry training boards in NorthernIreland were wound up, roughly at the same time as the industry training boards in Great Britain. Most of the training boards formed Sector Training Councils (STCs) on a voluntary basis after the statutory boards were disbanded. That is why they exist, and they have grown over that period of time. There are 13 of them representing the private sector. The only remaining statutory body is the Construction Industry Training Board (Northern Ireland). It carries out more or less the same functions as the Construction Industry TrainingBoard and the Engineering Construction Industry Training Board in Great Britain. There are two training boards in Great Britain compared to one in Northern Ireland.
2221.
The public and voluntary sectors in NorthernIreland are largely represented by the National Training Organisations (NTOs) which mainly operate out of England. However, in some cases they are represented in Northern Ireland, usually on a part-time or voluntary basis. Our contact with them is based on that.
2222.
I do not know how much information the Committee wants me to give. Would you be happy for me to just answer questions?
2223.
The Chairperson:We will move to questions.
2224.
Mr Beggs:I see from the evidence submittedthat 73 NTOs cover the United Kingdom. There appearsto be some confusion over the number operating here.Can you clarify exactly how many there are in NorthernIreland? How much overlap is there with Northern Ireland's STCs? As much of industry will not be catered for if those NTOs do not operate here, please identify the areas which are not covered. Where areas of industry such as service and health industries are not covered by NTOs in Northern Ireland, can you assure us that this is not detrimental for those training in the Province?
2225.
Mr Scott:Yes, there are 73 NTOs. Our best estimate is that about 40 to 45 of those have some sort of link with STCs in Northern Ireland. For example, in Northern Ireland the textile and clothing industry isrepresented by a single STC, but I think that in Englandthree or four NTOs span that industry. In England there are other bodies such as the Further Education NTO which deals with the public sector. It does not operate in Northern Ireland, but it does have members here through the colleges. However, it has no effective communication with us in the Province. In the Health Service the NTOs work with and link into the various boards and trusts. They do not have a formal presence here; they are simply represented by a Northern Ireland Committee which does not have a full-time structure.
2226.
One of the main roles of NTOs in Great Britain is to set standards which help determine National Vocational Qualifications (NVQs). As I said, Northern Ireland feeds into that through the NTOs on a voluntary basis. As we do not have our own separate NVQ system we rely on the English and Welsh system. As you are aware, Scotland has its own vocational qualification system.
2227.
No trainee is detrimentally affected with regard to the quality of training provided or the outcomes of that training. I think that the gap is in our information and knowledge about what is going on in the various industry sectors rather than in the quality of training being provided.
2228.
Mr Beggs:Is there not a danger with the duplication of the two different organisations that you end up missing out and misusing limited resources? If NVQs are used in Northern Ireland, is there not some degree of linkage into these national organisations?
2229.
Mr Scott:Yes. NVQs are established by the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority (QCA), and we link into it very clearly. When sectoral committees determine NVQs someone from Northern Ireland isusually in attendance. In most cases, an NTO representative will also be there in a voluntary capacity. You are right that there is always a possibility of missing out, but we have no knowledge of having missed out in that area to date.
2230.
The resources our Department has applied to STCs and to this area have all been in the private sector. STCs cover most of the private sector. We have not yet applied any resources to the public or voluntary sector as regards sectoral development and we are currently addressing that issue through a consultative forum we have set up in Northern Ireland.
2231.
Mr Carrick:You referred to the Construction Industry Training Board (CITB) as the only statutorybody in the STC. The CITB in Northern Ireland recentlyidentified a need to encourage a culture change within theindustry, and to that end recommended greater employercommitment to training and a substantial increase in the number and variety of firms involved.Are there any procedures in place to ensure an adequateand varied range of employer representation on STCs?
2232.
As you are aware, CITB is funded by levies on members from within the construction industry. Where employers use CITB training programmes a 65% grant is available, though I understand this will soon bereduced to 40%. That places them at a distinct advantageover the private sector. This sector can also give accredited training, but because private firms do not enjoy the 40% grant facility, there is not a level playing field as regards competition.
2233.
Mr Scott:Whether a firm is a member of the CITB is determined by the Industrial Training Levy (Construction Industry) Amendment Order (Northern Ireland) 1997, commonly known as the scope order.There is no opting out of its mechanism. If the scope orderapplies to a firm then that firm has to pay its levy. The cultural change required is about attitude rather than membership. If firms have to pay a levy, they would expect value for money and become engaged with the CITB.
2234.
As regards representation on the CITB, appointments are made by the Minister and the Departmentafter consultation with the industry. That is provided for in the Order. It is carried out under open competitionin the sense that an advertisem*nt is placed, and interested people apply. The Minister chooses from the list of successful applicants. The interests of employees and employers are equally represented on the board. Representation is on an open basis, ending with a ministerial appointment. You will appreciate that the industry, as payer of the levies, is interested in ensuring that the right people represent it.
2235.
Each year, the board submits proposals for a levy to the Department. Those would include details of what the board proposes to do with the levy before an Order is signed off, bringing the levy into operation. During recent years the board has sought to reduce the levy and get as much value for money from it as possible. One way to reduce it was to reduce grant aid to particular types of training. At the moment, the focus is on minority trades. For example, they think they need to do more to encourage people into areas such as flooring, where there is no proper training course. Another example would be ceiling fixing where there are not a great number of people but there is a need for training.
2236.
The CITB is not, in the main, a training provider.As I understand it, an employer will find a training provider whether it is a college or private-sector organisation. It will seek grant aid from CITB for that training. CITB does not subsidise trainers; it helps employers purchase training through the grant system. The issue of unfair competition is one we would need to highlight to the CITB.
2237.
Since it is a grant to the employer as the purchaser of training, rather than a subsidy to a training provider, we feel there is a level playing field.
2238.
Mr Carrick:Certain private training operators with accreditation are being disadvantaged by the current grant system. At a later stage outside the Committee I should like the opportunity to discuss with you an individual case I have in mind. It would be a perfect example of what I am trying to say.
2239.
Mr Scott:Yes. It would be helpful if you could do that.
2240.
Mr Byrne:Perhaps I might have some information on the consultative forum. What is its exactrole andremit, and what kind of function, statutory or otherwise,will it have? I should also like to know what the role of the Training and Employment Agency (T&EA) is in co-ordinating and leading the task of devising qualitytraining in the private and voluntary community sectorsas well as public sectoral training in further education and training centres. I shall make the general comment that this Committee has the task of working towards better value-added training.
2241.
Mr Scott:We became conscious that, in additionto the local STCs, a number of NTOs were beginning to operate in Northern Ireland on a voluntary basis, for example, in the Health Service and the voluntary sector. They were beginning to approach us to securefunding for various activities. We decided to offer themthe opportunity to come together in a consultative forum where we could at least have an even-handed approach to them all. It is not a statutory body but a group we have brought together. I am chairing it on a temporary basis until such time as its members feel it has become sufficiently sophisticated to determine its own chairmanship.
2242.
At present we send someone to the consultativeforum, spanning the public, private and voluntary sectorson a rotational basis to maintain contact withdevelopments in Great Britain. It is a purely consultative forum.We speak to them about things we do and try to get a common view across each of the sectors on what our policy should be.
2243.
Mr Byrne:It is therefore a loose gathering, and that worries me. Given the fact that all of us, and theT&EA in particular, should have the objective of better-quality training, why can we not opt for somethingwith more teeth and a more meaningful role? It seemsthat NTOs are setting themselves up here on a voluntary basis largely because of NVQ-type accreditationand standards. We need a more focused approach and a statutory forum.
2244.
Mr Scott:The issue of quality is important for us as well as for you. Quality systems are in place for NVQs and other vocational qualifications. The QCA in Great Britain has an office in Belfast. It has a set of quality standards and carries out the verification and validation of NVQs. The awarding bodies also carry out validation and quality checks on the application of NVQ standards. Those accredited to provide NVQ training in Northern Ireland carry out internal quality checks. All that is covered by an agreement between the QCA and the awarding bodies. The awarding bodies mainly link into the NTOs, although not in every case. A series of quality checks ensures that the outcomes of training, the NVQs, are properly dealt with and accredited. That has only been questioned in a few cases.
2245.
To achieve value for money as a department, we have the Education and Training Inspectorate look at our training contractors. We have a whole series of quality checks in place to try to ensure value for moneyand the right outcomes for people participating in training.
2246.
Mr Byrne:That begs the question of whether we feel training in Northern Ireland is of such high quality that we need not change it. Are we all happy with the status quo, or do we feel there is a real need to develop training for groups hitherto not afforded the opportunity?
2247.
Mr Scott:Your question raises a number of fundamental issues. The content and standard of NVQs are first determined by a sectoral group within the awarding body which will decide on type, level and content and submit its decision to the QCA for approval. After approval and accreditation, the content and standard of the qualification are determined. As industry is deciding the content and quality of qualifications, we should be satisfied with that, since we are not here to second-guess industry.
2248.
However, there is a whole raft of things outside that area which must be addressed separately from NVQs. For example, the Open College network, which is outside the NVQ system, has a number of accredited courses - for example, in basic skills - which are aimed at people who do not seek to achieve a high level of NVQ training. The CCEA in Northern Irelandhas a role in GNVQs and has brought vocational GCSEs and so on into the picture. The CCEA in NorthernIreland will have a role in local quality standards. Having allowed that to happen, our concern is therefore that the system of quality auditing which has been set up is working well and providing the right courses to the right people. We must identify those people and ensure they have access to the right trainingat a time which suits them. The whole life-long learningprocess has been about that.
2249.
Mr Dallat:In my innocence, I cannot resist asking you this. I was only coming to terms with expressions like NVQs, and now I shall have to cope with NTOs, STCs, GNVQs and the QCA - how will that ever mean anything to the ordinary man in the street?
2250.
Mr Scott:That will always be a problem for us all. People have got used to GCSEs and so on. This is a language issue to which we must adjust. I know the CCEA has recently issued a leaflet to help employersunderstand the various roles and comparators for qualifications so as to simplify it for the man in the street.
2251.
Mr Dallat:Do you accept that there is a need for plain English now?
2252.
Mr Scott:Absolutely. We all wish that, and we all want to make it a way of achieving parity of esteem between the various types of qualifications.
2253.
Mr Dallat:I shall commit the deadly sin of asking you if there is equal recognition of NTOs and STCs by employers and training organisations in and outside of Northern Ireland. Will the NTOs continue to be recognised for national occupational standards and NVQ purposes? If you have retained all that up to now, will the proposed consultative forum take on any responsibility for accreditation or the recognition of training qualifications?
2254.
Mr Scott:The first and last parts of your questionseem rather intertwined, since they concern qualifications.We have a totally open mind on what results from the consultation. However, we bear very much in mind that Northern Ireland is different from the rest of the UK, just as Scotland and Wales are different, and that there are a number of specific things we may need to do. For example, if you look at the documentation, you shall see it suggests an NTO might consist of up to 500,000 employees. There are around 650,000 people working in Northern Ireland, and if we have 73 NTOs, that figure seems rather high.
2255.
Simplification may well be needed in Northern Ireland. Our policy on qualifications is to continue to keep them at a national level, largely because of that scale. To have separate qualifications right across the various skill sectors for Northern Ireland alone could be quite intensive as regards labour application andresources. Again, however, we are open-minded on where that takes us.
2256.
I thought that when you said neutral qualification, you were going to lead me into a North-Southdiscussion, because we have been working on that front to ensure that qualifications gained in both jurisdictions can be recognised.
2257.
Mutual recognition by English employers and Northern Irish employers is an issue because those are voluntary organisations. You cannot force employers to become part of them or force them to recognise them because they work on a voluntary basis. Because of the different circ*mstances in Northern Ireland - the skills work we are having to do and indeed the pool of the Irish labour market in a number of sectors - encouraging employers is not the best that we can do. We are also trying to take alongside the central view of what those skills issues might be.
2258.
Mrs Carson:Thank you very much. The information that we got before the meeting said that theagenda for this arrangement in NTOs has now changed. It is proposed that, instead of the establishmentof anoverarching body, a consultative forum will be established.Who has proposed this?
2259.
It is also stated that the reasons for that proposal are linked largely to funding implications. Was it funding considerations alone which contributed to the decision not to establish the council?
2260.
Mr Scott:In a previous consultative document which was issued nationally, it was indicated that Northern Ireland would set up a central organisation to manage the umbrella group of NTOs operating here. The Northern Ireland Training Council Association, which was the umbrella body for all STCs, was already in operation. I am trying to get away from the alphabet soup for the moment, but that was already in operation and covered the whole private sector.
2261.
It was considered in consultation with the various sectors that to form another body with another secretariat, including an umbrella body for a group of STCs as part of its membership, would just be confusing. We have formed the consultative committee to try to reach a clear view on where we go in Northern Ireland in relation to NTOs. They are all in the sameroom now and are all talking about the same issues. If that leads to a further proposal for some sort of overarchingbody, we shall certainly consider it.
2262.
We want to see the outcome of the current round of consultations before we make any final decision.We have no proposal at present beyond the consultative forum.
2263.
Mrs Carson:Do you make a proposal, or do you make a decision?
2264.
Mr Scott:In what context?
2265.
Mrs Carson:If it is decided, will your groupingget the consultative body? Can they decide what is being done, or can they make a proposal to someone else?
2266.
Mr Scott:Yes. Since Ms McGill and I are bothin that part of the Department, we are mainly concernedwith helping ensure that sectors, companies and others with skill needs have a direct line into the Department through us.
2267.
They can make proposals without difficulty. We are not in any way bound to accept the proposals. Ourjob is rather about reaching accommodation with peopleand helping them along a particular route.
2268.
Ms McGill:At the last consultative forum meeting,all the members were particularly interested in getting the outcome of the consultation exercise which has taken place across the entire UK. Once these are known, we will be able to proceed with decisions.
2269.
Mrs Carson:The proposals then come back to the Department. Are elected people also part of the consultation?
2270.
Mr Scott:No, with the exception of our normal relationship with elected representatives.
2271.
In the Programme for Government and your look at our budget, you gave us some sort of authorityto get on with the job. Such consultations would embracea level of working detail. However, in the case of apolicy decision in relation to the outcome of consultation, you would come to the Assembly Committee.
2272.
Mrs Carson:That was what I was trying to tease out, Mr Chairman.
2273.
Mrs Nelis:Good afternoon. I find this all very confusing, but if I give it some close reading I might come to some kind of understanding. Are the strategies you have talked about here today - the development of skills training in the North of Ireland - not going to proceed along a route similar to that of the United Kingdom? That would mean via STCs rather than NTOs. Can assurances be given that that will not be in any way detrimental to the development and provision of skills training?
2274.
If we are not to proceed along the UnitedKingdom route, shall we proceed at all along a cross-border one? Already I see that, in the recognition of exams, there is a need for mutually accepted vocationalqualifications, and people are already doing them. There is mutual recognition of NVQs and their Irish equivalents, and that has been achieved in several skill areas; and further recognitions are expected. We mustbe very clear about certain developments and we certainlyneed clarification of where we are going - for employers as well as trainees.
2275.
Mr Scott:Perhaps I might take the latter part ofyour comment first. On the question of mutual recognition,you understand that NVQs are for England, Wales and Northern Ireland, Scotland having its own system. When we get mutual recognition to the point where we have reached agreement, it becomes an East/West issue in the sense that then the qualifications authority and the awarding body in England must then agree on mutual recognition. However, to date we have not had any difficulty whatsoever with that.
2276.
Of course there is the wider issue that our youngpeople are working more and more in mainland Europe,never mind throughout Ireland, and mutual recognition across the Continent is becoming an issue. We bear all that in mind as we move forward, and on an individual basis we are working through various sectors to look atmutual recognition. Plumbing and electrical engineeringeach have mutual recognition since there has always been a great deal of movement North and South in those sectors.
2277.
We are trying to ensure that the Skills Task Force creates various kinds of work and identifies the wider needs in Northern Ireland. We think the STCs and the private sector could help us with the other micro needs and enhance our knowledge of them. Working jointly across the spectrum, we are trying to get it right.
2278.
We believe that our responses are more flexible and quicker than England or Wales, for we are nearer the market. We do not intend slavishly to follow what happens in England, Wales or Scotland. We have regard to them in our policy making, and we have demonstrated that through a number of projects where we run training programmes unique in the UK. We look at the work of our colleagues in Foras Áiseanna Saothair (FÁS) in the Republic of Ireland. We have just been to New York with them, and there is also an element of co-operation in that respect.
2279.
The Chairperson:It seems to me that there is afundamental issue here. What is the best way of determining the skills gaps, both now and forthcoming?Is it by a top-down process or one from the grass roots? Does it originate with the sectors or the employers? I put it in those terms since in the UK-wide document,NTOs are seen as taking on three core roles - assessingand articulating the current and future skills needs oftheir sectors, leading action on sector skills developmentand actively reviewing progress in meeting skills priorities.
2280.
You were saying earlier, Mr Scott, that from the T&EA point of view there is an "agnosticism" about where this process ends. However, it strikes me that, if Northern Ireland were to follow that sort of practice, it would really imply that NTOs required a very wide range of powers.
2281.
They would become correspondingly strong. As I understand it to some extent that would differ, from the current means that the T&EA has set up to try and identify the skills gap, which seem to be fairly centralised at the agency. I am not saying any of this necessarily by way of criticism; it is more a description of how I see matters have worked out. Tell me if I am wrong.
2282.
It may well be - and I should be interested in your view on this - that the UK-wide view on the broader role of NTOs is simply unrealistic. I understand that there is some evidence that NTOs in Great Britain have not worked well because private sector employees cannot really be persuaded to participate to any great extent or provide much by way of market intelligence. There is a fundamental issue ofhow far the identification of the gap should be centralised in the T&EA. How far do you allow it to develop in the sectors before feeding back to yourselves?There is also the question of feasibility. Does a market-led, private-sector approach to the identification of skills gaps - based on the experience in Great Britain to date - necessarily work?
2283.
Mr Scott:There is room for both approaches. There is clear potential for sound research-based information to tell us where Northern Ireland plc is going regarding future skills needs. Some of those skills needs may not be readily identified on the shop floor - at company level - since companies are looking at their needs for the immediate future. Who would have predicted that the telecommunications industry would change so much over five years?
2284.
There is room for both. That is where we should like to end up - with a strong research-based, labour market information needs system, backed up by industry telling us where we have got it wrong and right and where it sees things going in general. That adds value to what is otherwise just a set of figures. That is where we should like to be at some point with the Skills Task Force. That is why it has decided to begin looking at sectoral organisations and work with them to see where we might take this. I do not know whether that answers your question.
2285.
The Chairperson:It does. Thank you. Are thereany other questions?
2286.
Mr Dallat:You made some small reference tolifelong learning. Can we assume that, for some people,life really will begin at 40? That is my awkward way of saying that we have a birthday girl in the room today who needs reassurance that this is the case.
2287.
Mr Scott:We shall try to reassure her about that.
2288.
Mr Byrne:We had people from Shorts Bombardier here recently, and they had a good story to tell about how the company is performing - how employment is expanding, and how they have an in-house training scheme. We were all impressed bywhat we heard. Will the T&EA, as part of its consultativework, look at the good practice of those who have employer-led schemes, perhaps learning from them and trying to apply the generic benefits which can accrue right across the region?
2289.
Mr Scott:Undoubtedly. We have worked extremely closely with Shorts Bombardier in recentyears and helped the company with its current expansion.I should like to think it would acknowledge that quitepositively. It has been a good story of partnership between government and a company, not only to expandits workforce, but to widen it. We have all learned a great deal. We have worked with other companies who have difficulty in finding and retaining staff. We areworking with a number of such companies at the momenttodevelop in-house lifelong learning and workplace learningpossibilities.
2290.
As much as we can, we love to hear about and follow good practice. However, we are conscious that Northern Ireland is a small-business economy, and not every small business can afford all the structures which go along with best practice. We keep that in mind as we develop our approach to the matter.
2291.
Mr Byrne:Mr Chairman, that is the real challenge. If you look through the written evidence submitted today, you will see it is probably the SMEs which are losing out at present. That is why we need a statutory umbrella organisation for training which can facilitate their needs. I agree with you that SMEs do not have the resources or man hours to devote to training people on the job. The T&EA has a real responsibility to meet their needs.
2292.
Mr Scott:The issue of a statutory authority is clearly not for us. When we finish the consultation, there may be proposals and recommendations about that. However, we are conscious that simply translating or parachuting the NTO regime into Northern Ireland may not always work - for the simple reason that we do not have enough big companies to sustain it. For example, the training council for the engineering industry includes British Aerospace and all the large car companies. They can generate a great deal of high level business. The local Engineering Training Council has done very well considering that it is made up mainly of small companies.
2293.
Mr Carrick:Has anything been learned from the experience of having 13 NTOs in Northern Ireland and the fact that only one of them is statutory?
2294.
Mr Scott:As there is such a difference between construction and other industries it is difficult to make a decent comparison. One reason why the Construction and Industry Training Board (CITB) is still a statutory body is that labour subcontracting in the industry means that there are no employers to train those who need it. The impact of health and safety issues on training in construction is so powerful that to minimise accidents, it is essential that people be trained to the right level. The fragmented nature of the industry was a strong argument for keeping the CITB. That argument does not apply equally across all of the sectors, and it is difficult to make a comparison.
2295.
The Chairperson:The other interesting thing about the CITB is that it kept the levy. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think that any other sectors have a levy arrangement. There is an argument - I suppose there is an economic theory behind it - that the training market does not work well if it is left to private sector incentives, because employers say, "Why should I train employees when they will only be poached by other companies?" That was the logic used in the past to justify levies. Perhaps this is an unfair question, but I shall ask it anyway. Do you have any comments on the issue of introducing a new carrot-and-stick approach to give employers either positive or negative incentives to train?
2296.
Mr Scott:I shall try not to be too opinionated, for the Committee will have its own thoughts. Leaving aside what happened in Great Britain, the experience that led to the wind-up of the industry training boards in Northern Ireland was that, with relatively small sectors, the cost of managing the levy's collection from a sector's employers was 20% to 25% of the income. That was then given back to employers in grant form. You were basically taking money from people and then returning it, having added little value.
2297.
Another issue was that many of the training boards worked on what they called a levy remission system. They paid their money and then got it back ifthey had a training plan that satisfied the training board. The cost of policing that was enormous, so it wasnot always particularly effective. That is the experience of the past.
2298.
There are some pilot schemes in parts ofEngland where local employers' groups are coming together to ensure that, if poaching occurs, the employeewho leaves takes a bounty with them. The investment in training is measured, and members of such consortia actually exchange money to account for the cost of training when employees move.
2299.
We await the outcome of those voluntary pilots.
2300.
The Chairperson:The following picks one anecdotal case, albeit concerning what was in the past a significant employer. Half the workers in Harland & Wolff were literally flown in from Scotland and the north of England. That begs the question - why did Harland & Wolff not train Northern Ireland people to be fitters and so on, as opposed to flying people in? Isuppose the answer is probably that it was cheaper, but such practices obviously create problems for the economyas a whole.
2301.
Mr Scott:It was not just an issue of people being cheaper. We engaged with Harland & Wolff on a number of occasions to train local people for the industry. Harland & Wolff decided to have a core group of skilled people, with contractors handling the rest. People in Northern Ireland were not used to the idea of working a given number of weeks at a time, so the people from England would come from an oil rig, work for Harland & Wolff, and go back. That transfer caused the problem as much as anything else.
2302.
Mr Beggs:I accept that there are 73 NTO bodies but, since Northern Ireland is much smaller, it would be difficult for all 73 to operate here. There are, however, 15 NTO groups. Is there not some logic in changing the STCs into NTO groups so that the entire area of training would be covered? At present many areas are not covered.
2303.
Mr Scott:The STCs in Northern Ireland see themselves as independent of the NTO.
2304.
Mr Beggs:But are they not dated? We are talking about 10 years ago.
2305.
Mr Scott:If they simply became part of the NTOs they might say that some of their NorthernIreland flavour would be lost. They would have to make that decision in full knowledge of all the circ*mstances. Where there is no STC, however, we arehappy to see what develops in relation to the amalgamation of NTOs in Northern Ireland. If, for example, there were one NTO for the whole of the voluntary sector, it would make life much easier for everybody. To be fair, the way in which the voluntary sector works to achieve co-operation in Northern Ireland would mean it might not be difficult. The difficulty is with all other sectors.
2306.
Mr Beggs:Is there any self-interest in the STCs' continuing without evolving? Are they the right people to make that decision?
2307.
Mr Scott:They are neither the right nor the only people to make that final decision. We shall beinformed by consultation in the document. If the opinion is overwhelmingly that they should do something, we would implement an agreed policy to encourage them to fit in with it.
2308.
The Chairperson:On behalf of the Committee, I thank you both. Our talk has been extremely helpful, and we are very grateful to you. We have managed to get through most of the matters we wanted to discuss, but we may wish to submit some written questions. Thank you very much. We wish you well.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 29 March 2001
Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Mr R Hutchinson
Ms McWilliams
Witness:
Mr H Hastings) Hastings Hotels Group
2309.
The Chairperson:Good afternoon and thank you for coming along. I apologise for the number of members present; I do not think it has anything to do with today's subject matter. It is related to all sorts of things beyond our control.
2310.
As you know, the Committee is conducting a general inquiry into the adequacy, or otherwise, of the training system in the context of economic developmentand industry in the Province. The Committee appreciatesthat hotel and catering makes up a large sector with huge growth potential.
2311.
Mr Hastings:Thank you for inviting me along this afternoon. I am delighted that the Committee has recognised the value of tourism within the economyand the influence of the education sector in contributingto its success.
2312.
I am Howard Hastings, the managing director of Hastings Hotels. We have six hotels in Northern Ireland and one in the South. I am also president of the Northern Ireland Hotels Federation, and I served on the Training and Employment Agency (T&EA) board for seven years, up until earlier this year. I am a board member of Investors in People UK, which I believe is probably a standard with which members of this Committeeare already familiar. I am a former governorof Castlereagh College of Further Education, and, of less interest to this Committee, I am a member of the joint North/South marketing body, Tourism Ireland Ltd.
2313.
I have given you details of what Hastings Hotels is about in the briefing pack. The company has 850 full-time and between 850 and 1,000 part-time staff. Of the full-time staff, 25% would have post-second level qualifications. We have had people qualify with NVQs from levels 1 to 5 in the company, and we are the only company in our sector that is licensed by the T&EA to offer modern apprenticeship programmes in-house. We spend approximately 5% of our payroll annually on training and development within the company.
2314.
The terms of the Committee's brief are wide, so I am going to give a snapshot on how my company interfaces with the various constituent elements of the Government sectors that are the subject of your scrutiny. I will now briefly address the five points I noted on the front of my submission. The first is our company's interface with higher education.
2315.
We run two group-wide management developmentprogrammes each year. The first one has about 20 participants and offers successful candidates an NVQ level 3 together with a certificate in management practice. The second one is smaller at a higher level and offers 10 participants an NVQ level 4 together with a diploma in management practice if they pass. These courses cost between £1,000 and £1,500 per candidate.
2316.
The programme was designed to meet the company's needs and was tendered to the marketplace. The contract was awarded to the University of Ulster atJordanstown, to the School of Business and Management,which delivers the programme in conjunction with the School of Hospitality and its cohort of lecturing staff. This collaboration has worked well for us, and I believe it is unique in this sector. Interestingly, a recent evaluation of the School of Hospitality gave it a score of 23 out of 24, which I believe in university terms is a remarkable accolade. So it shows what the School of Hospitality at the University of Ulster is capable of delivering both for undergraduates and for those in the industry alike.
2317.
Broadening that subject, I think it is bizarre thatthe university vice-chancellor, Gerry McKenna, appearsto be ignoring industry advice and - without a great deal of consultation with either the industry or with his high performing staff - is looking to relocate the School of Hospitality to Coleraine to become a subset of the biosciences faculty. I am sorry if I am offending anyone, but I am just telling it as I see it.
2318.
My company's interface with further education is poor because further education does not perceive me as its customer. The funding that the hospitality sector gets from Government is apparently £12 million per annum. Colleges offer courses that suit them and the Government to run, and too few of those students ever turn up on my payroll. That is to be regretted.
2319.
For instance, colleges apparently run 26 types of course at NVQ level 3. This provision is ill co-ordinated and ill-marketed, albeit that the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment (DHFETE) inspectors say that it is well delivered. Colleges do not know where their students go and are not rewarded for their ability to make their charges employable or to secure them employment. My contact with colleges - or those parts of DHFETE that fund colleges - is infrequent. To claim that the £12 million spend is on the hospitality sector is, I believe, bogus because the outputs are so ill-defined.
2320.
This will only change when the funding mechanisms enable myself, my company, and other companies in my sector to become customers. I do not believe that we, as a sector, have all the answers to ourown training requirements, but the current arrangementsdo not encourage companies to take ownership and responsibility for their own training. That is the key to delivering better results in this area.
2321.
I will move onto the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment and the Department of Education issues affecting the company. What we increasingly find is that we are in conflict with further education as we are in competition withthem to attract school leavers. Therefore further educationwould not encourage our industry to develop good relationships with secondary education, because it would be in danger of having the bread taken from its mouth, as far as funding is concerned.
2322.
Within the Department of Education for NorthernIreland system, there is insufficient GNVQ provision for those wishing to take the vocational route into the hospitality industry, a sector which is set to grow. Interestingly, to overcome this problem, I have been working on a pilot project with the South Eastern Education and Library Board, called Learning Through Work. In some companies in the North Down area, including Valpar, Munster Simms and the Ulster Hospital Trust, we replaced the traditional week-long student placement with one where students could go one day a week to the company, for a period of perhaps six or seven weeks. During that time they were able to gain accreditation for part of the GNVQ that they are doing in company and in school time.
2323.
The students undertaking this course have had a much higher level of motivation than those doing the traditional week-long work placement. There has been a full evaluation of the scheme by Cecil Holmes of the Northern Ireland Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment. Perhaps that is something that your members might wish to follow up. There is a better way to encourage the secondary school sector to engage with industry at an earlier stage, but it will require an impetus to allow for space for this in the curriculum.
2324.
As regards in-company trading, and our relationship with the Training and Employment Agency, the Committee will be familiar with the company development programme, which is the keynote line of expenditure which would affect our company. This has proved to be a good model for our industry. It comes back to the ownership point, which I made earlier, where one agrees a plan with the Training and Employment Agency in advance, and sets about delivering it.
2325.
The initial rate of funding at 35% to 40% wasmore appropriate because the Training and EmploymentAgency was paying on outcomes. One has to take account of the attrition level that exists because of employees that are taken on and trained but for one reason or another do not provide outcomes.
2326.
The Chairperson:Who administers the companydevelopment programme? Generally it would be the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment rather than the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment. Is it the same in the hospitality sector?
2327.
Mr Hastings:It is now the responsibility of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, but the same personnel that used to work in the Trainingand Employment Agency administer it. For newcomers,one of the downsides of the new arrangements is that there is a little confusion about who administers it, as the staff in the business support division of the Training and Employment Agency transferred across to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment.The valuable part is that the company owns the training.The downside is that the company development programme is now very thinly spread, and the assistance rate is now down to an average of 20%, which, therefore, no longer encourages companies to take on new projects aggressively.
2328.
The other problem that bedevils our sector is theunwillingness of the company development programmeto fund the same thing second time around. I constantly have new recruits coming on who need new training. They go on to other places. Therefore the training that we do benefits the whole of industry. We sometimes feel unfairly penalised for not being allowed to go back and do more of the same, which would continue to benefit the industry.
2329.
Modern apprenticeship programmes are the other element of T&EA funding and are a good model of a way forward. Companies can engage in the knowledge that the outcomes are what will be rewarded in an open and clear way. At any point in time, we have around 24 modern apprentices at the Hastings hotels. Again, we would have an attrition rate amongst starters there. In particular, what we find is that those who achieve level 2 suddenly make themselves very marketable, the programme is geared to deliver up to NVQ level 3. However, we have had difficulty in retaining such staff, albeit they are capable of going further. The funding mechanism does not perhaps take into account the level of attrition that exists in that programme. It is a good programme. At the start the administration was cumbersome but is now improving. The T&EA appears to recognise that and is to be praised for that.
2330.
I have made a note about raising the profile of the hospitality industry. We suffer more than some sectors, although every sector has its good employers and its less good employers - it does not matter whether you are in manufacturing, retail or hospitality. Hospitality has suffered an image problem more than most in the same way that many people equate the manufacturing industry with what they see in Mike Baldwin's workshop in 'Coronation Street'. Equally, the hospitality sector has been informed variously by people viewing 'Fawlty Towers' or the fly-on-the-wall documentary at the Adelphi Hotel. With real tyrannicalchefs like Gordon Ramsay and imaginary tyrannical chefs like Lenny Henry, these images are only reinforced by individuals' own recollections of working as casual staff maybe 20 years ago, or more in some cases. Our answer to that is not poster campaigns.It will be long, hard and slow work.
2331.
Interestingly, what we find is that secondary school and grammar school pupils are now more attractedby recent media images such as the 'Ready, Steady, Cook' programme. They are more aware of leisure facilities in the sector. Also, they are attracted to the high-tech IT environments of front office and reception work. Therefore the marketing that we do is as much directed at the parents as at those wishing to come into the industry. To capitalise on this, we at Hastings Hotels no longer welcome whole classes of students into the hotels, rather we will attend the schools and make presentations to those classes.
2332.
For those who wish to know more, we invitethem to spend an evening in the hotel with fellow studentsfrom other schools, although they cannot attend unless they are accompanied by their parents. We give them interactive demonstrations and also break them into small groups to encourage the sorts of questions that they have about the industry, which they would not ask in fear of peer pressure. We show them around the hotels, including the kitchens, the laundries and all those places that people think resemble the Black Hole of Calcutta. We show them that it is maybe not thatway any more. This is also a good development activityfor the staff who are engaged in delivering this for the students and their parents. We deliver this programme twice each year at all of our hotels. More than 1,000 students and parents have been through this system, which is slowly but surely starting to raise the image of the industry and redress some of the image problems. Members of this Committee are more than welcome to come along to one of these evenings to see for themselves. I extend that invitation.
2333.
The Chairperson:That is extremely helpful. Thank you for that and, indeed, for the written material as well.
2334.
Mr Byrne:I welcome MrHastings and I congratulate him on what his company is doing to improve the image of the hotel and catering industry. It is very worthwhile. Given the fact that there is this whole change in training people for the industry, there are also professional managers who often go on to do HNDs and degrees in hotel and catering management. That seems to be largely successful in producing the right image and well-qualified people.
2335.
However, as I understand it, there was always very strong practical skills training in the past where students went to further education and followed what was called the 705/706 City and Guilds practical skills training. I would like to invite comment about practical skills training and how that is going. Is that being handled by the modern apprenticeships? Can I invite the witness to comment on the Shannon College of Hotel Management, the Cathal Brugha Street Catering College at the Dublin Institute of Technology and theKillybegs Tourism College? What sort of qualificationsdo they cover? In the past they taught City and Guilds-based practical skills and then they had a degree. Can he also comment on the specialist training for those who want to be chefs in terms of advanced culinary skills?
2336.
Mr Hastings:That is an all-encompassing question. You are right to identify the traditional split, albeit slightly narrower now, between management and craft training. It is very hard for people to succeed right the way through the industry if they have not engaged in the craft-training element. Part of what makes them better managers in our industry is that they started and completed proper craft training.
2337.
Craft training and the 705 or 706/1 and 706/2 qualifications you mentioned are now largely related to the equivalent NVQ level 2 or 3. They would be delivered by that £12m of further education funding that I mentioned.
2338.
Mr Byrne:How do NVQ levels 2 and 3 compare with the City and Guilds 705 and 706?
2339.
Mr Hastings:My evidence is scant because I do not see a sufficient number of those people comingto work for me, but the impression is that it has becomemore generalist. It is described as being for the hospitality industry, but I fear that too many of the graduates of those programmes are ending up in what I call industrial catering - in hospitals, care institutions, schools and places like that.
2340.
We are missing the type of skills you haveidentified, which are produced by places like Killybegs.I am not so familiar with Cathal Brugha and Shannon, but they obviously enjoy high reputations. Higher skills training, for example, for chefs, has been driven in recent times by in-company training. That is to say, people wish to go and work in the kitchens of those very fashionable and successful restaurants that seem to have sprung up everywhere, and we should be grateful for it. Restaurants have taken on the burden of bringing on the higher skills training. I do not believe there is a huge provision at that higher level as there might have been in years gone by.
2341.
Mr Byrne:I have one supplementary question. I think it is fair to say that many hotel managers came through the practical and culinary skills background. Ican remember two, a Mr Slevin and a Mr McGinn, whom I am sure you are familiar with. Can you commenton the type of manager who comes through the practicalskills training and ends up as a hotel manager, and the other type, who goes only to university to do a hotel management degree course?
2342.
Mr Hastings:All the general managers in each of our six hotels have come through the practical skills route. Therefore it is slightly harder for me to commenton those who come through an academic route. Some of our managers have acquired degrees and qualificationsalong the way, but they have done their time on the craft end. I am sure Mr McGinn and Mr Slevin will be more than delighted to have their names recorded in Hansard for posterity. They have been very successful managers, originating from west of the Bann.
2343.
What the craft skills have given them is anentrepreneurial spirit that helps to make them successfulmanagers. Their familiarity with what goes on behind the hotplate, both with customers and with the people working for them, is what is important. Ours is an industry where someone coming along with purely academic experience will struggle. Mr McGinn, who isthe general manager at the Culloden Hotel, is the youngestmanager in the group and has a politics and sociologydegree. However, at his mother's knee, he was immersedin hospitality, and that experience stands to him as much as the academic experience.
2344.
Mrs Carson:It is always interesting to hear the presentations and the problems that different industries are meeting. I have just one question that has come up several times. What do you think of the basic literacy and numeracy skills of the young people that are coming into your employment? Do you have any problems there? What is your opinion of their abilitywhen they come in? I am talking about people from your front desk right through to those in the laundry room.
2345.
I was very pleased to see that you have got the parents in your sights as well. That is important. In some of the other presentations, we found that the parents had a great influence on the academic field of their children, and they seem to want the easier option. We had some of the industries saying that they were looking for chemistry but were getting arts. Has it helped you to retain staff, having that liaison with the parents? I am very interested in basic literacy and numeracy.
2346.
Mr Hastings:The basic literacy and numeracy is a very important point. The biggest core skill that we are looking for in employees is communication skills. If they can present themselves orally, there is very little that we cannot train or assess in other areas. We have had people engaging in NVQs in the past, some of whom have held very senior positions. It is only when you start to engage them in this development activity that you learn that some of them have had problems with literacy skills in the past, and we have moved to find different ways of assessing what we know they can already do in order to make sure they are recognised at the level at which they are able to work. We have not been sending people back for remedial training in literacy and numeracy, but if people are able and willing to work at a certain level, we will use assessment methods that are appropriate in order to make sure that they can gain qualifications, very often qualifications that they have missed out on in their previous formal education.
2347.
I am glad you picked up on the issue of parents. The point I was trying to make is that young people can be turned on to hospitality as a career, but the evidence from chatting to people from the Training and Employment Agency job offices is that parents retain a veto over what their children will do, in the same way that I was advised that ballet dancing was not for me. Some parents will advise their children not to go into hospitality. If I have the student already enthused, I need to recruit the parent as well so that their fears, which I hope are often irrational, are addressed.
2348.
Ultimately, I am offering these young people places on modern apprenticeships, and so on. These are young people who maybe have had a bad night out on a Sunday night. I want their parents to be on my side, to say "That is a good job you have. You are going intoday". That is the aim I have - to recruit the parents to be on my side, to encourage and enthuse their youngstersas well. I cannot identify what overall impact that has had on retention levels, but, clearly, the more I invest in training and development, the more retention levels go up. People use different measures, but the one that I use is the number of people working for me today that were there at the same time last year.
2349.
The past three years have seen a huge rise in thenumber of jobs in the sector, with large premises openingand competition coming in at a time when itwould be feared that staff would be lost to those new ventures. My retention levels over that period have beenbetween 66% and 70%. Although very few people publish their retention levels, I believe that to be a credible figure.
2350.
Mr Beggs:From your presentation, you value training, both as an individual and as a company. You see benefits from it for both your employees and yourorganisation. I was struck by your comments on NVQs,which you use heavily in your training. If I have picked it up correctly, there are 26 unco-ordinated courses.What mechanism, if any, currently exists to co-ordinatesuch courses?
2351.
We received evidence last week on NationalTraining Organisation (NTO) and Sector Training Council(STC) groups. It became very evident that there were a lot of sectors where no one represented industry's input into the training system or ensured that the training fulfilled industry needs.
2352.
Is there a National Training Organisation coveringthe Northern Irish hospitality sector? Is there a national training sector group? Do you think that such a group would be an advantage if it were set up in Northern Ireland?
2353.
If you believe that NVQs will continue to be a main plank of training in the industry in the future, how should we all move forward to an interactive means of getting industry's views in to the Training and Employment Agency (T&EA) and in to the NVQs themselves so that they will meet the needs of the companies and individuals involved?
2354.
Mr Hastings:You have touched on a very validpoint. The best STCs or NTOs are those that are wholly owned, driven and run by the private sector. Our sector is not sufficiently well organised or financedto achieve that. That has bedevilled the T&EA's efforts to answer the question: what is it that you need? Therefore that has contributed to the supply-side solutions that we have in the further education sector.
2355.
The answer has been a publicly funded STC of sorts. The Tourism and Training Trust (TTT) has been established. That operates a little like a sector training body, except that it also includes wider Government representation. There is representation from colleges, further and higher education, the T&EA, innkeepers,bed-and-breakfast owners. Representation is both publicand private.
2356.
The Tourism and Training Trust applies to the T&EA for a budget to do what it wants. It is not a training provider itself, but it is supposed to sanction the training that is going on. The trust has identified that we need more research in that area.
2357.
Research has been commissioned on where students go, what their aspirations are within the sector and what the range of available provision is. That workis commencing, but, as yet, the TTT is not a hom*ogeneousbody. It is financed by time-bound European funding.
2358.
It is unclear to what extent the TTT's recommendations will be binding on the T&EA. It was originally envisaged that the TTT would also have direct influence over the Department of Education, but that has not been the case in practice. There appears to be no influence of the TTT over the £12 million spend by the Department. It is a live question, but it is too early to answer it.
2359.
Mr Dallat:I know you wear many hats, and the one I would not attack you for is as managing director of the Hastings Hotel Group. I have been in your hotels, and they are an absolute credit to the tourismindustry. However, wearing your Tourism Ireland Limited hat, you are one of two very important hoteliers,and your vision of tourism must extend from Belfast to Belcoo and from Saintfield to Strabane. So why are you so set against the training being established at probably thebest university in western Europe? That deeply offendeda lot of people.
2360.
Mr Hastings:The University of Ulster is a very fine university, and it operates on many sites. Theevidence shows that when it put its provision in the north-west of the Province it attracted a lot of people fromthe Province who then escaped it. Funding for training and education should deliver more for the Province.Therefore there is a unique opportunity for the University of Ulster to resite its school of hospitality in the centre of Belfast where approximately75% of the jobs exist, and, in conjunction with the Belfast Institute of Further andHigher Education and the Springvale project, to be ableto create a provision of craft and management training co-ordinated in one hospitality school. That is not to deny the claims of Coleraine. It is a lesser choice of site. If movement is to be made, the industry and those who work for that department should be consulted.
2361.
Mr Dallat:In Germany hotel workers are comprehensively trained for three years and acquire a qualification that is highly valued by employers. Can you give the Committee any further information or observations on the German system?
2362.
Mr Hastings:I do not have direct experience of the German system, but it is a proper apprenticeship inthe old-school style. It is very thorough, very rigorous and very highly sought after with a lot of public intervention to make it happen. In the modern apprenticeship programme we offer a three-year programme leading to an NVQlevel3 in a work-related environment. It may not deliver the highest standards of excellence that you would get from an off-the-job programme, but it doesdevelop skills that are required for the industry at present.
2363.
The difficulty is that our industry has large andsmall organisations which are geographically dispersed.That has led to the question of what you want from training. If more ownership can be given to individual operators they will deliver for the industry what they want for themselves and for their own businesses. That is a better model. Research is ongoing to find out if we need a school of excellence for hospitality. We have to work out what will deliver the industry's needs in the most cost-effective way.
2364.
Mr Dallat:Grant support has dropped from 40% to 20%. Is that an issue that we should address?
2365.
Mr Hastings:I am not sure whether it is within the remit of this Committee to examine the value of the company development programme, but with regard to intervention to help business deliver on training and development, it is something to consider.
2366.
The Chairperson:Strictly speaking, it would be in the remit of the Enterprise, Trade and Investment Committee. We might want to make a recommendation to it and in turn to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment.
2367.
Following up on the previous question, my impression has been that over the years there has been a number of consultancy reports on the quality of personnel in hotel, catering and hospitality in general. They often come up with fairly negative appraisals - terms like "a lack of professionalism" have sometimesbeen quoted. While it is dangerous to resort to anecdotes,a number of people have commented to me that theysometimes get that impression. I am certainly not talking about your own group, but you always hear the storyof people sitting down to a meal and getting it thrown down in front of them. I am not sure how you train people for this, but there may be issues of excellenceand even basic courtesy in the handling of customers.
2368.
This leads to another specific point, the availabilityof people who have foreign language skills, especially French and German, to handle the increase in foreign visitors which we all hope for. Do we have the capability to deal with people visiting Northern Ireland who cannot speak English?
2369.
Mr Hastings:You have raised two issues - professionalism and customer care. It depends on the ability of entrepreneurs to provide that. They all wish that their staff would be courteous and able to greet everybody. However, this depends on what they can afford to do. I do not want to divert the conversation on this, but we have seen in the last month how the agricultural crisis has created an immediate cash flow shortage for the hospitality sector. This is a time of the year when smaller units would tend to do whatever work they intended to do such as refurbishing and gearing up for the new season. Their cash flow is at its weakest at present, just when they are ready for the season to begin.
2370.
If someone comes along, as has happened in the last month, and says that their season is postponed by two months, that creates grave difficulties for them. Those difficulties persuade those entrepreneurs, in order to survive, to become very short term about their thinking. That means cutting out on some essentials, not just luxuries. The first to go, I fear, are things like training. It is a difficulty and is something I have said in other places. The bank manager still needs paid at the end of the week, even if no one else does. I worry that this sudden shift to "short termism" means that some customers may end up receiving a lesser standard of service than they would expect and which the proprietors would like them to receive.
2371.
If you ask people if they believe that their staff should be more professional, they will all say "Yes". Itis about aspiring to higher standards of professionalism.More tourists coming from other destinations will, strangely enough, lead to higher standards of professionalism as they explain to the proprietors the standards that they actually expect. Many proprietors are underexperienced in what is expected, and that is not meant to be a patronising remark. We are getting visitors from many more jurisdictions than before.
2372.
Regarding language training, the Tourist Board has taken the lead on this in developing a programme called Welcome Host, which is a generic customer careprogramme training staff about the courtesies of meetingand greeting, and being aware of what the local attractions are. The idea is that communication with the customer can be improved. There are different strata to Welcome Host. One is about accessibility; another is about language skills. There are a number of strands beyond the basic award. Companies with morethan 90% of their staff having gone through the programme are awarded the Welcome Host Gold Awardand a presentation takes place. The Tourist Board is to be congratulated for that.
2373.
Admittedly we do not get large numbers of customers speaking foreign languages. If we got the Czechoslovak football team we would not be able to gear up for them in short order. I fear a mismatch, and Ido not think that a great raft of supply-site Czechoslovaklanguage-skills training is going to cure this. We need to be careful as to how we best direct the resources that are available to us.
2374.
The Chairperson:Would it be the case that inyour hotel group you could cater for the main Europeanlanguages?
2375.
Mr Hastings:A previous Minister, Mr Needham,once tried it on by coming to the Stormont Hotel one evening with a French visitor. He was not a great fan of the hotel and came in to give us a lot of grief. Happily, our restaurant manager, who was born and bred on the Newtownards Road, was well able for the customer, much to Mr Needham's chagrin.
2376.
Ms McWilliams:Has competition from the large international hotel groups such as Hilton and Raddison skilled-up or skilled-down the industry? You make the point that they tried to aggressively poach your staff from you.
2377.
Mr Hastings:That is a good question. I am not sure that I would be the best judge of that. Having a large number of hotels with a critical mass of staff is beneficial to the industry as a whole because the larger hotels tend to have more sophisticated management structures. They also tend to have more sophisticated front-office demands. We would have a greater pool of IT-trained front-office staff. That, in the longer term,has to create a labour pool of more highly skilled people.
2378.
It has also created opportunities for middlemanagement. One of the early surveys would have shownthat the industry was characterised by small owner-operatedoutlets for which the only possibility to achieve what you wanted in management was to move away. Thelarger outlets have now created an opportunity for managers to improve their skills.
2379.
Entrants into the market have received remarkable support from the Training and EmploymentAgency inorder to deliver training. I do not know whether members of the Committee feel that the Training and EmploymentAgency has had value for the level of intervention that was delivered to those inward investing projects.
2380.
The Chairperson:Would you like to hazard a view on that as I suspect that is what Ms McWilliams's question is about?
2381.
Mr Hastings:That is not fair, but I do not mind your asking.
2382.
Ms McWilliams:That was the first part of my question. The second part is that in your submission you make a point about them aggressively trying to poach your people and not succeeding. One would be led to think that the remuneration and the opportunities were already there in-house or that the attraction was not sufficient internationally from the others to take your staff away from you. Is that still the case?
2383.
Mr Hastings:People did move across to the new establishments. It is attractive to be part of an international group with opportunities to live and work abroad as time goes on. Undoubtedly that is one of the attractions of joining a multinational group. I feared that we would lose many more than we did. We must be doing something right because we have retained those who are still working for us.
2384.
I suspect that for some people living in the Province and working for multinational chains here it is better that they have opportunities to travel and workwithin the group. Before the arrival of the multinationals, they did not have that option.
2385.
Ms McWilliams:The wage councils obviously apply to this industry, and I note that you made a point about European Directives. This is not a European Directive; it is a domestic directive. Has the minimum wage improved the industry and the skill levels?
2386.
Mr Hastings:There are two answers to that. One is that the more exacting the minimum wage becomes, the more proprietors will seek to gain additional productivity from the staff who work for them. It is a spur to higher standards. You need to be employing people who can work at a level that commands the wages on offer. The corollary to that - this is anecdotal - is that I get many more people who want to come and work asking what the remuneration "in one's hand" is. Obviously an organisation like ours does not make payments "in one's hand". At one level, it has probably spurred some employers on to gaining greater productivity and skill levels from those working for them, but at another level there are probably sectors of the hospitality industry that are more inclined to be tempted by the black economy.
2387.
Mr Byrne:Is the culture of customer care and hospitality in catering generally improving in NorthernIreland? How far do we lag behind international standards?
2388.
Mr Hastings:Generally, it is improving. With my Irish tourism hat on, I can say that one of the fears of the Southern part of the jurisdiction is that the worth of the Irish welcome has been lost because it has not been able to recruit and retain sufficient numbers of indigenous staff. It has supplemented its staff with European and other imports in order to fill the demand for staff in the rapidly growing tourism economy.
2389.
We get very high ratings from visitors coming to the jurisdiction. What we may sometimes lack in professionalism, we make up for in natural warmth and friendliness. That has long been recognised. I also believe that as a jurisdiction, we beat ourselves up terribly and do not sufficiently celebrate what we are good at. Each person's perception is different when one travels. I am not aware of any qualitative surveys that have been done which include Northern Ireland, but I believe that we are capable of delivering standards of service to international visitors which are very often in excess of what they expect.
2390.
The Chairperson:That is a good note to finish on.Thank you very much, Mr Hastings, for the presentation,the question session and the written evidence for our inquiry. That was a very helpful discussion and quite amusing in places, which always helps us to get through the business. We wish you and the company well in the future.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 29 March 2001
Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mr Dallat
Mr R Hutchinson
Ms McWilliams
Witnesses:
Mrs J Trewsdale) Northern Ireland Economic Council
Mr A Gough)
2391.
The Chairperson:On behalf of the Committee, I welcome Mrs Janet Trewsdale and MrAidanGough, the chairman and acting director of the Northern Ireland Economic Council, respectively.
2392.
This is the second time you have given formalevidence to the Committee. We are looking at the impactof the training system and research and development within the university context. One of the things we want to talk about is the report that you commissioned from Michael Best, 'The Capabilities and Innovation Perspective: The Way Ahead in Northern Ireland' (the Best Report). Mr Byrne and I had the pleasure of attending the session in Queen's University at which Mr Best discussed his paper, and we both found it extremely interesting. We felt that it would be valuable to table that report, along with other things, in the Committee today.
2393.
Mrs Trewsdale:We also found the seminar useful. It is a difficult paper to read and understand. It is a very dense paper, to which Mr Best brings life when he explains it.
2394.
I thank the Committee for its invitation to appear here. We are happy to provide what help we canin furthering the discussion and information on economictopics. Normally we prefer to comment on reports that we have completed and published on specific issues. In this case, we wish to confine our comments directly to the relevant issues that have arisen out of the Best Report.
2395.
The Chairperson:Yes, that will be all right.
2396.
Mrs Trewsdale:I will not try to perform Mr Best's hand gestures. In the opinion of the Council, however, the attainment of his "virtuous circle", inwhich a growing economy helps to generate the resources and opportunities to tackle social exclusion, should be an important strategic objective of Government. He details three key issues - the business model, production capabilities and skill formation. He sees those as three interlocking circles. In other words, they are all feeding around each other. Transformational growth of the type that is required to increase GDP per head in Northern Ireland, as called for by 'Strategy 2010', requires integrated action across those three domains. They are not three separate areas operating in isolation.
2397.
Professor Best's other key message is that skill formation for the transitions that are taking place in technology should be anticipated. The region shouldnot just simply be reactive to what is currently happening,but should attempt to anticipate future changes and therefore be ready for them. Doing that creates a simple comparative advantage over other regions that do not anticipate those changes.
2398.
Best also argues that we have world-class research facilities in several areas in the two universitiesin Northern Ireland, but he sees the university/business partnerships as being too few. He does not say that they are non-existent, but that they are too few. Best also says that the FE colleges in Northern Ireland are currently enjoying little guidance, particularly in the crucial area of manpower planning.
2399.
Those are the two key areas. Both ProfessorBest and the Northern Ireland Economic Council recognisethat investment in skills is costly. What we are suggesting is not cheap. If you are to get a return on your investment, it is important that you match the demand for skills from firms that advance technology with thesupply that is going through the educational institutions.It is a case of matching what education is producingwith what is being demanded by increasing technology.
2400.
Best acknowledges that that might sound as though we are talking simply about further and higher education. He takes it down a step and says that we are looking for co-ordination between employers and teachers at all levels, right through to and including the education authorities. That is one of the key priorities in developing the active partnership idea.
2401.
Ms McWilliams:Professor Best drew on his experience in Massachusetts, and he talks about the three partners. We know that it is being done, it can be done and it could be replicated. Would you like to comment on that?
2402.
Ms Trewsdale:Best gives the demand for engineering/technology graduates by the new high technology firms as a key example. Co-operation between the firms, including those investing, and the local universities was necessary. The firms did not say, "We need such-and-such, please produce it". They were prepared to put money into the universities in order to increase the ratio of staff to students. Staff had to be put into universities to produce the graduates for the firms. That is where the firms were prepared to help, and Professor Best has the data that shows a substantive rise in the number of engineering and technology graduates that were produced.
2403.
Ms McWilliams:Endowments here tend to be made through chairs, rather than posts at the more junior level. In the past, private industry has either set up a new type of chair, or put a few extra chairs in for research purposes. Numbers of teaching staff here tend to be driven by the quantities of graduates wishing to study. Best is talking about a different approach, wherethe firms come in and say "We will set aside a substantialsum to recruit these staff". That is a different type of experience.
2404.
American experience lends itself to that - or has done so in the past. You are talking about a cultural and organisational change. Has the Northern IrelandEconomic Council (NIEC) had discussions with universityleaders?
2405.
Mrs Trewsdale:Not directly. The idea was thatin some cases, employees of the firms themselves shouldenter universities to help with the practical teaching side. It is a two-way flow, which occurs in Northern Ireland to a certain extent through the teaching companyscheme. However, we have not been in direct negotiationswith the two universities on the issue. As you say, there are examples both at Queen's and the University of Ulster of firms which have donated money for named chairs, which they see as prestigious. Neither of the universities would be averse if a company came along with several hundred thousand pounds for the purpose of employing more lecturers. It is a matter of getting them to do it.
2406.
Mr Gough:The three key elements are the firms,the educational institutions and Government funding.Even in Massachusetts, the key funder was the Government rather than firms. Best cites other examples such as Taiwan, Singapore and the Republic of Ireland where that was also true.
2407.
Ms McWilliams:I understood that, but I also understood that it was very much the firms themselves, in partnership with the Government, who took theinitiative. Our tendency here has been for the Governmentto promote and encourage firms to do that. Much of the teaching company and business education partnerships have sent the teachers out, but the flip side - sending the companies in - has not happened. From what I understand, it is an experience that we could learn a great deal from.
2408.
Mr Gough:He quotes another example, the Questor Centre at Queen's. One reason he liked that model was the way it brought companies in and sent students out; it was a two-way process.
2409.
Mr Beggs:At an Industrial Development Board seminar I attended about six months ago, the deputy principal of a local further education college stood up to say how pleased he was to be there, for it was the first time he had ever been invited to an event connected with the board. There seems to be a clear need to improve links between industry and the further education sector. If I am not mistaken, you said in your report that you are considering undertaking research into further education and economic development, or at least recommending that there be increased monitoring of the area. Have you done it? Are you, or anyone else, currently carrying out work on assessing the links between the further education sector and industry?
2410.
Mr Gough:We have not started it, although it is on our work programme. The NIEC will soon be discussing whether to take that project forward. I know that some work has been carried out in the South on the institutes of technology, which have a key role in economic development. In Michael Best's report, thelack of guidance for the Northern Ireland further educationsector came out very strongly. I remember that it struck him very forcefully when we were meeting people.
2411.
Mr Beggs:How far away is your own report? Might it be longer than six months or a year?
2412.
Mr Gough:The NIEC has not even discussed whether it will take it forward yet.
2413.
Mr Beggs:I am sorry. I see that it is in the early stages. Do you recognise that it is an important area for you to consider?
2414.
Mr Gough:Absolutely.
2415.
Mr Dallat:How badly are further education colleges out of synch with the needs of industry? I should appreciate a frank answer, for we hear criticism, but no one has been brave enough to come out and say it straight. Perhaps we should leave Belfast and the north-west out of this, for they seem to have gone their own way, but it applies to the other 15 colleges. How closely do they relate to the needs of industry? What must be done to respond seriously to the contents of Prof Best's report?
2416.
Mrs Trewsdale:Although you used the word"criticism", I do not think that Prof Best is criticising the further education colleges. His comment is that they receive little guidance. He does not say that it is their fault, but that they need guidance from Government,or whoever, in the crucial areas of manpower.
2417.
Mr Dallat:I apologise. I put it badly. I was referring exactly to that paragraph. It is very serious.
2418.
Mrs Trewsdale:Yes. As far as Prof Best and the council is concerned -[Interruption]
2419.
Mr Dallat:It goes on to say that they lack co-ordination too. Are they all singing from the same hymn sheet, or are they all doing their own thing?
2420.
Mrs Trewsdale:The council does not necessarilyknow that, because it has not examined further educationcolleges in sufficient detail to understand what they are doing. In answering Prof McWilliams's question, we were concentrating on engineering and technology graduates. However, Prof Best has highlighted another part of the story, which is the skilled workforce idea. It is not simply the case that we only want graduates. Skilled non-graduates are also needed to work in industry. He saw the further education colleges as the source of those skilled - and I do not use this phrase in a disparaging way - non-graduates. Did we not discuss this last time we were here?
2421.
A good, educated and skilled workforce isrequired. We do not mean that they must all be graduates.Perhaps the idea he is getting at is that the further education colleges are not in a position to produce the type of skilled workforce that is necessary, because they are not receiving guidance as to what type of skilled workforce is required. That is how I read it.
2422.
Mr Gough:The key message from Prof Best's report is that the whole process of skill formation must be integrated. He even goes back to schools to involve primary school teachers as well as the further and higher education sectors, and industry. He emphasisedover and over again that it must be a concerted and integrated approach. He thought that the further educationsector was not sufficiently involved in this process.
2423.
The Chairperson:Prof Best said that little guidance is given to the further education colleges. I think that that is true, but if the council looks at thefurther education issue in detail in the future, one questionto ask is, "Is Prof Best's idea of guidance compatible with the existing model of incorporation, which leaves the 17 colleges free-standing from the Department?"
2424.
It strikes me that we might be in danger of having the worst of all possible worlds. It would be better if we moved in one of two directions. Either the sector is centralised again and administered and funded tightly from the centre, or it is accepted that we are using a market-based model of training and indeed funding, which means that money follows the students. In the latter instance it is accepted that the colleges are allowed to specialise, which will probably mean that Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education's activities are radically different in nature and scale from what some of the other colleges do. It is even possible that some of the colleges will not survive. There is coherence in both those models, but I suspect that at present there is a bit of a muddle, as in so many things. It is part direction and partly a laissez-faire market approach, and it is not working. May be that is more of a comment than a question.
2425.
Mrs Trewsdale:As Mr Gough said, the council has not looked at this area in detail yet. As you know, the council is loathe to comment on something that it has not looked at in detail or that has not gone through its procedures.
2426.
All Best is saying is that the colleges havepotential; he felt that they were not getting the necessaryguidance. You talk about your market-based model, butthe other way to look at it is to say that opportunity costs. It is perhaps better for certain colleges to specialisein producing really top-rate skills than for all to do theirbest. Those are my own thoughts, not those of the NIEC.
2427.
Ms McWilliams:I do not necessarily agree with your approach of presenting those options as mutually exclusive. I believe that one could both centraliseand specialise with a co-ordinated and integrated approach.At the moment the universities and the further educationsector are reaching out to the colleges with some courses, but they are not working in a very integrated fashion regarding the strategic vision of where they want to go with skills.
2428.
We have heard evidence that the teaching of IT in schools is a concern, with a lack of attraction at thatearly level that has not been the experience in the UnitedStates. If you had a much more integrated regional approach between universities, colleges and schools it would be possible both to co-ordinate and specialise, in what would still be very much a market model.
2429.
Mr Byrne:I found the Best contribution both interesting and challenging. I agree that the further education sector lacks co-ordination. Perhaps you might address the issue of how we go about matching industrial culture with educational culture. All of us who have been in the education system know that wewere so shackled by administration that we did not relateto it much. However, we were driven by systems thatcurtailed creativity and the connection with entrepreneurstrying to run a business, train people and get on with it.
2430.
I believe that Best also makes reference to this issue that there has been research and development inNorthern Ireland, but how can we make it more practically relevant to the needs of industry and technology? I have been heartened in recent weeks. I know someone who hasspent £300,000 of his own money developing a project inhis own garage. It is draining the resources of his mainstream business, and the frustration he has experienced has been quite unbelievable. The onlylight at the end of the tunnel has been that the Industrial Research Technology Unit (IRTU) has recently been very helpful.
2431.
I invite your comments about how we are to achieve relationships between the educational culture and the person running the firm, who needs research and development at a practical level and who is also looking for a young person to go to work in industry and adopt its culture.
2432.
Mrs Trewsdale:I agree that, traditionally, the education system has always been seen to be divorced from industry apart from when we had the oldtechnical colleges and apprenticeships. My lame answerto that is that, from the evidence that the Best Report presents, they seem to have succeeded in doing this in the Republic of Ireland. Their educational and industrial system has very similar roots to our own. We talk about Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan and Japan, and one could argue that there are fundamental industrial-cultural and educational-cultural differences. However, they seem to have pulled it off in the Republic of Ireland. We could have a look at the way that they have gone about it.
2433.
Mr Byrne:That is where the regional technologycolleges have made a major contribution. Therefore, we can gain from their experience with regard to how that can be applied to our further education colleges.
2434.
Mrs Trewsdale:Technology colleges became unfashionable, and many in the UnitedKingdom have become universities. It is seen to be better to be a university than a technical college. The idea that the technology industry is somehow inferior is something that runs through culture. It is the old idea of blue collar versus white collar - you get a degree and then move on, and you will not have to dirty your hands. It is not a case of dirtying your hands with oil these days: we are talking about new technology.
2435.
Mr Gough:The important element that comesacross in Best's case studies in Massachusetts and otherregions is leadership. That is why he emphasises the need for this type of integrated plan coming from Government.It does not mean that the Government are the leaders in the process, but they have to set the divisions and the culture within which the plan can be taken forward.
2436.
The main elements are leadership and the willingness to get people involved from primary, secondary and further education, universities, and within companies- the concept of invisible colleges - to bring all these together into a dynamic plan. He is saying that we in Northern Ireland have a rather static approach to skills. The Northern Ireland Skills Taskforce and the monitoring survey tell us what we have, and where the shortages are, but it has yet to be turned into a dynamic plan, and that is what the Best Report is seeking.
2437.
Mr Byrne:Do administrative systems constrain people in education, in Government and in the Civil Service? MrGough said that the Best Report talksabout role model leaders promoting a dynamic interactioninvolving those in firms, those in education and those with the necessary skills.
2438.
Mrs Trewsdale:I am a bit lost as to what the question is. Are you talking about the idea of GCSE and A-levels? Is that what you mean by rigidity?
2439.
Mr Byrne:I mean the general administrative systems that we have in colleges, in universities or in public administration. Are the systems so rigid that they do not provide for the unlocking of creativity?
2440.
The Chairperson:Perhaps you could be a bitmore specific. I thought that you were referring to thingslike quality assessment of teaching and research assessments.
2441.
Mr Byrne:I am not casting any doubt on the intellectual abilities of the people who are in the universities or, for that matter, in the Civil Service or Government agencies. We are so shackled by the administrative mechanisms that we have the stuffing knocked out of us.
2442.
Mr Gough:The Confederation of British Industrypublished a report on the links with industry and business, and they did point to a problem of too much bureaucracy in universities. They found that that constrained the development of links between the two, especially for small and medium-sized enterprises.
2443.
Ms McWilliams:People used to leave the university once they had engaged in entrepreneurial activities - the university frowned upon it because of the time that it took up. The issue has never been tackled properly. People would resign in order to create their own businesses. In addition, because of the way the research assessment exercises have been carried out, projects that involve applied work do not get as many points as they would if they were involved with an internationally refereed journal. That situation has begun to change only recently, and it has hit Northern Ireland particularly hard in the areas of business and social and economic sciences.
2444.
Dr Birnie:I have to declare an interest there. I agree completely.
2445.
Mrs Trewsdale:Is that what you meant, Mr Byrne?
2446.
Mr Byrne:Yes. I would like to thank my colleague, Monica, for helping me with that point.
2447.
Mrs Trewsdale:I have to declare an interest aswell, because of my day job. What Monica is describingcomes from central Government. It is not a problem that the countries of the UK can individually influence. In Scotland they have said that there will be no fees for students. It would be wonderful if you could say that there would be no research assessment exercises in Northern Ireland's universities. However, the decision is made by central Government - you do not have direct control over that.
2448.
I agree with Mr Byrne that the situation is a disgrace. At the Queen's University of Belfast, with the environmental science and technology research centre (the Questor Centre), there has been an attempt to encourage the development of links with industry and to sow the seed of new industries.
2449.
Mr Byrne:I will make one more attempt to make the point. Mr Chairperson, you will understand because you were a lecturer at a university. If you are caught up in teaching, there is not enough time for you to take an interest in careers in industry.
2450.
Mrs Trewsdale:That is true, and as Ms McWilliams said, even if they do have time, they are not likely to want to spend their time doing that, because of the pressure that is put on academic staff to produce the four grade four or five publications.
2451.
Mr Gough:The problem is not just the issue oflecturers' involvement but also of students' involvement. We have a world-class research infrastructure. However,we do not have the links with industry via the throughputof students who work in a research environment on industry-relevant projects. We must get lecturers and students more involved.
2452.
Dr Birnie:On page 5 of your submission you say that, in most cases, the issue is not so much thenumber of graduates who come out of further and higher education, but the absorption of them by industry;the problem is more about demand than supply. Can you elaborate on that point? We have heard similar evidence before. It is important to determine how far that is the case, because if it is it somewhat changes the policies one may wish to adopt.
2453.
Do firms, companies or the private sector bear some responsibility for the problems, in that they are not paying sufficiently high salaries - especially for technologists, engineers, scientists, and so forth? Therefore, the apparent low supply is not surprising and is a rational response by individuals looking at the market signals. Is there much firm evidence as to what is happening here, relative to either the Republic or Great Britain or any other relevant part of the world?
2454.
Mr Gough:You are right about the absorptive capacity of industry. In looking at the whole process of regional development, the main conclusion of Best's report is that we lack entrepreneurial firms. The report quotes an interesting statistic: only 25% of engineering graduates in 1996-97 found jobs in Northern Ireland. There is, therefore, a problem in industry, and thatreflects back to the technology management capabilitieswithin industry as another dimension to the whole area of training. The Chairman produced some seminal work on that issue back in the early 1990s.
2455.
The Chairperson:You are flattering me now. Carry on, I am enjoying it.
2456.
Mr Gough:Ten years later, it is still a problem.
2457.
Mr Byrne:We have heard this point before, butthe Best report also referred to the deficit in mathematicsand science, and the less than enthusiastic approach to those subjects. There is a question about the quality of teaching in mathematics and science in our secondaryschools. I know that some lecturers at Queen's Universityare complaining that they have to take the first six months of a degree course to actually do some A-level mathematics. They feel that that is a great constraint.
2458.
Mrs Trewsdale:To remove my hat as chairman of the Northern Ireland Economic Council and put on my hat as a statistics lecturer at Queen's University, this is one of my personal hobby horses, as Mr Byrne knows. What he says is absolutely true. The decline in the standard of maths among undergraduates - I am talking about GCSE maths here, not A-level maths - is just unbelievable. What does one do about teaching statistics? From our point of view, something is going awfully wrong in the teaching of maths in schools. The universities are not necessarily in a position to find out what that is.
2459.
A recent story in 'The Times' - which I can send to you - was about a simple test for teachers in primary schools who were going to be teaching maths to children. There were 10 questions, and the article recounted how many of the teachers got them wrong. This was simple stuff - not, perhaps, quite primary school level, but first or second form maths that they would have learnt themselves at that stage. This is something that is very close to my heart, and I really lose confidence in proceeding. We taught you O-level maths with statistics, and then you went into second year. Now we have to put on a maths course in first year, to bring the students up to the O-level standard that you had when you came to Queen's.
2460.
Mr Byrne:In the past, the O-level course had trigonometry, algebra and calculus.
2461.
Mrs Trewsdale:Calculus in not taught now at all.
2462.
Mr Byrne:That is what I am saying. GCSE mathematics has been diluted so much that it does not provide the student with any solid underpinning mathematical knowledge.
2463.
Mrs Trewsdale:There is no logical thought. They do not teach students how to think logically. They are not even taught how to follow an argument down a page.
2464.
Mr Dallat:I have an interest in literacy andnumeracy, but perhaps at a different level. Are the samearguments made for literacy, as you have just made for numeracy?
2465.
Mrs Trewsdale:Yes. When I mark essays inother subjects that I teach, the illiteracy is quite amazing. Onegets colloquialisms written down that are fine in speech, but when they are beautifully written or phonetically spelt, it is quite frightening. It is not necessarily even the content - the handwriting itself is often so atrocious that one cannot read it. You have really got me started on a personal point.
2466.
Mr Dallat:I was dying to ask a question earlier, but I was scared to. What about the poor student who is into the humanities in a big way - are they going to have a hard time in the future if everybody is forced to go down the technology road?
2467.
Mrs Trewsdale:I do not think there is any suggestion of forcing anybody to go down any road. There is definitely room for the humanities. You cannot have a cultured society - and I mean culture with a capital C, as opposed to the new meaning of the word "culture" - without having humanities involved. That would be horrific.
2468.
There are probably quite a few people who, if they were correctly encouraged, would go down the technologyroad. They may not be very successful on the humanitiesside because they have a bent towards technology.
2469.
Mr Dallat:I know somebody at university -not in Northern Ireland - who recently went to discussan MA course and very timorously announced that theywould like to study an eighteenth century French author.The tutor immediately went into ecstasy and pulled out books that had been gathering dust for years. However, there are no bursaries, no grants, and no financial support.That person will do the MA, but entirely under their own steam.
2470.
Mrs Trewsdale:We have a Department of Byzantine Studies at Queen's University, and it is very popular. That is going to the other extreme. As for the lack of bursaries, I do not think that that is necessarily just the case in the humanities - or, indeed, obscure humanities. You could argue that the MSc in finance is fairly current. The master's degree in computer science and its applications is a sort of transitional course for humanities graduates and the like. We find, however, that the money is not there these days for our students to get bursaries, even to study what might be regarded as relevant subjects in this argument. There is a shortage all the way round. The money is not floating around for people who want to go off and be finance people and computer experts.
2471.
Mr Byrne:That is probably an issue for us. We have concentrated largely on undergraduate finance, but there is a severe lack of bursaries for people who want to do a master's degree or a PhD. That is vital in relation to creating the intellectual capacity that has suffered very much.
2472.
Mrs Trewsdale:These days we are becoming like America in the sense that you really have to do a master's degree if you want to progress and feel that you have a qualification. We used to deride that and say that the bachelor's degree in Europe was as good, but now students are getting to the stage where they are having to go on to do master's degrees in the varioussubjects and, as Mr Byrne said, the bursaries are not there.
2473.
The Chairperson:Perhaps I could ask about what has been a fairly vexed topic - the numbers of IT-qualified people, both at graduate and sub-degree level, coming out through the system. On pages 53 and 54 of his paper, Best says that in the Republic the annual output is about 3,100 at degree level and 2,200 at diploma and technician level, whereas here it is 825 degrees and roughly 1,000 higher national diplomas, etcetera. We are running at roughly one third to one quarterof the Republic's rate, which is certainly lower per capita. Is it too little? I say that because it has been controversial. There have been the NIEC reports, John Simpson has been writing in the 'Belfast Telegraph' about it, and the Minister has made various comments.
2474.
Mrs Trewsdale:We are back to the idea that Monica McWilliams was hinting at. If you are going to produce qualified people at graduate level, or even at sub-degree level, you have to have the teachers. They have to be in place in order to increase the numbers. I certainly know that in the case of computer science, both Queen's University and the University of Ulster find it very difficult to recruit staff. Even having recruited them, it is very difficult subsequently to hold them, simply because of the salaries. The demand for good computer staff is so high. There are students whogo out and earn £35,000 to £40,000 per year on graduation. That is at the top level, but they are averaging £20,000 or £25,000. When you think of lecturers' salary scales, it is a chicken-and-egg situation.You have to have the teachers to teach. Best seems to think that youcan get them. He is fairly cavalier about getting teachers.
2475.
Mr Gough:It depends on whether you want to offer American salaries.
2476.
The Chairperson:We will probably have to declare an interest in that one too.
2477.
Mr Gough:You made a point about the disagreement over whether there is a shortage. Best says that that emphasises one of his main conclusions, which is that there needs to be this bottom-up approach involving all the practitioners in any sort of manpower planning or skills auditing exercise. That is needed to avoid that sort of disagreement.
2478.
Mr Byrne:It is important that we put on record our appreciation of the Northern Ireland EconomicCouncil, because over the last ten years it has contributedenormously to critical analysis and evaluation of theeconomic trends and difficulties that we have experienced.That has been very welcome.
2479.
Mrs Trewsdale:Thank you. As you know, we are under review at the moment, so we very much appreciateyour comments. Can you make sure to say that in other places? Although the review looks quite favourable, it has not been finally concluded. We really appreciate the Committee's support and are very grateful for it.
2480.
The Chairperson:Thank you both for coming, it was extremely helpful. We will try to absorb all the material that you have sent us. It is obviously relevant to both training and research and development. We hope to complete a report by the autumn.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 3 May 2001
Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Mr R Hutchinson
Mr J Kelly
Mrs Nelis
Witnesses:
Mr F Crowe)
Ms D Kelly) Craigavon Borough Council
Mr A Hatch)
Mr T Reaney)
2481.
The Chairperson:On behalf of the Committee, I thank Craigavon Borough Council for having us here today, for the excellent lunch we have just enjoyed, and for the very attractive surroundings. It is the first time that the Committee has visited the offices of a district council. It is appropriate that we have come toCraigavon, which probably has the largest concentrationof industrial activity outside the Greater Belfast area.
2482.
We are continuing our inquiry and evidence gathering into the Northern Ireland training system. I would like to welcome the mayor, Councillor Fred Crowe, Councillors Arnold Hatch and Dolores Kelly,and Trevor Reaney, chief executive of Craigavon BoroughCouncil. Would you like to make a short statement, after which we can have a discussion?
2483.
Mr Crowe:By way of introduction, it gives megreat pleasure to formally welcome you and the membersof the Committee to the borough of Craigavon this afternoon. We are delighted that you have chosen Craigavon. I am sure there are many reasons why you have chosen our borough, but I think that your Deputy Chairman, Mr Carrick, may have had a word in your ear. We appreciate your coming here.
2484.
Dr Birnie has already mentioned our large industrial base, and it is a fact that Craigavon is the largest manufacturing base outside Belfast and has been so for some considerable time. In the Regional Development Strategy it has been designated as an area of major growth. No matter where you look, houses and business units are springing up all over the place. We have recently had a major influx of new people coming to live and work in the area.
2485.
We are also fortunate in having a unique educationsystem, the Dixon plan, that exists nowhere else in Northern Ireland. Four members of my family have gone through the system, and being a member of the Southern Education and Library Board for the past four years, I would not change the system for anything else. It is first-class and reaps rich rewards. We also have the Upper Bann Institute of Further and Higher Education, and I was involved in the amalgamation of the colleges in Lurgan, Portadown and Banbridge. Together, these three places offer a service that is second to none in Northern Ireland, and I say that as a former part-time lecturer in engineering at the Belfast College of Technology.
2486.
The council believes that local companies havemuch to add to your deliberations, and I understand thatthey will be making a contribution later this afternoon. Recently, a building handed over by the Training and Employment Agency (T&EA) has been added to thePortadown campus of the Upper Bann Institute. CouncillorHatch and I are members of the institute'sboard of governors. Councillor Hatch has an engineeringbusiness that makes heating plants and ventilationequipment. While Councillor Kelly is not a board member,she has a very responsible job involving training. She works in the rehabilitation day care centre here, she has her ear to the ground and knows what is going on.
2487.
We have much to offer in Craigavon, but we do have a shortage of certain skills.
2488.
The further education college works closelywith the council, where I was chairman of developmentfor six years. We also have the Greater CraigavonPartnership. The director of the further education collegesits on a number of our bodies and he is well versed on what is happening in the area and helps us greatly.Through his work and through the work of the economicdevelopment committee we invite local school children, people from the education sector and local companies to the council. It gives young people an opportunity to see what we do.
2489.
For many years I have been a careers guidancefanatic, having run a business for 48years. I was presidentof the Association of Northern Ireland Education and Library Boards in 1998-99, where I specialised in education for employment and careers guidance. This has been continued throughout NorthernIreland via the five education and library boards. At present careers guidance is not being tackled properly. Teachers are under pressure and they need to find out what is happening.
2490.
Mr Reaney:In discussion with the Committee Clerk we agreed that there were four areas where it may be useful to make some comment. You have already received a lengthy written submission from us.
2491.
The first issue is the future training needs in the Craigavon area. As has already been stated, Craigavon is the largest industrial base outside Greater Belfast. We have the largest concentration of manufacturing. One weakness in our manufacturing base is that it islargely, but not solely, dependent on traditional industriessuch as engineering, food processing and textiles, areas that are all under threat. The whole of Ireland has had significant job losses, particularly in textiles.
2492.
We are looking to future training needs. Likeother areas, we want to move away from our dependenceon traditional industries to opening up the capacity among our workforce and local people to provide the potential for new inward investment from the newtechnologies, ICT, pharmaceuticals, health, electronics,telecommunications and so forth. We perceive a major need for future training in the new technologies. We want a workforce that is ready and a training system that feeds into those new technologies. In 2000 Craigavon Borough Council commissioned a study in which 100 local companies were surveyed; 67% of respondents found it difficult to recruit people with the right skills. In their view that issue rated third in importance for future development. They also referredto the competitiveness of the market place and the strength of sterling as obstacles to growth and expansion. We are fortunate in having one of the lowestunemployment rates in NorthernIreland. That is a blessing, but it creates difficulties in providing the labour supply, which is a factor that we need to consider as we move forward in training needs.
2493.
The second issue is the future of our further education colleges. The Upper Bann Institute is one of the key drivers for the future delivery of our local training needs. It is moving increasingly to a client-driven system where it is responding to local needs by identifying gaps in the market and adopting a flexible approach. We see the institute as playing a key role in the years ahead.
2494.
The institute is starting to turn its attention to the new technologies and is developing courses to meet theneeds of those industries. It has recently been identifiedas an ICT centre of excellence in Northern Ireland.
2495.
We are keen to increase linkages between further education colleges and universities. The Upper Bann Institute provides foundation degree courses thatfeed into the University of Ulster. However, that shouldbe extended, perhaps with links to Queen's University, and possibly a university satellite campus in the area to support local industry.
2496.
In 1999 the Upper Bann Institute established a business-oriented department, Training Direct. This is an organisation within an organisation that seeks to devise programmes and training to meet the needs of local businesses.
2497.
When we look at the further education sector it is important to recognise that two competing issues need to be balanced. The first is the ability of the sector to be responsive to local needs and the second is to have a strategic approach at a Northern Ireland level. This would ensure that we are not going off in different directions and missing opportunities that a coherent strategy could provide.
2498.
The third issue is the linkage between Government,education, training and industry. In Northern Ireland some £2 billion is spent on education and training. However, there is minimal investment in identifying future training needs and issues, which leads to an over and under-supply situation. In linking Government with industry, there should be an increasingly coherent approach to matching those skills. There should be stronger links at a regional level between the various Government Departments and particularly the new economic development agency.
2499.
The mayor has already referred to the Greater Craigavon Partnership; the director of the Upper Bann Institute and the chief executive of the Southern Education and Library Board sit on its board. By using this economic development forum, and through local networking and contacts, we seek to influence, and be influenced by, the education and training world.
2500.
The fourth issue concerns examples of good training practice in the Craigavon area. I would like to focus on one company in particular, NACCO Materials Handling, which has identified how the Training Direct initiative at the Upper Bann Institute can work with industry. You will be seeing its representatives later this afternoon and they will give you their perspective.
2501.
NACCO is a large company employing approximately 800 people. It mostly manufactures forklift trucks for export. Training Direct has been working with NACCO to develop courses which fit with their needs and the scheduling of their shift systems, which is an important issue for the company. They supply courses in computer literacy, electrical engineering, fabrication, welding, programming and engineering, and a BTEC national certificate in engineering, which is delivered on Saturday mornings so that employees can be released for training. Some 142 employees have undertaken courses through this initiative, which demonstrates the significant impact the institute's approach has had on a local employer.
2502.
Many other companies are involved with TrainingDirect - Moy Park, Ulster Carpet Mills, Tayto, Rush Manufacturing, Saville's Motors and so on. We find that this type of linkage between an institute and local industry is very successful and we commend it to other colleges and industries in Northern Ireland.
2503.
Ms Kelly:There should be more input by colleges such as the Upper Bann Institute into the careand nurturing of young people in areas such as parentingand home management skills. It is not simply about economic resources - it is also about personal development.
2504.
Something must be done about the supposed stigma of "going to the tech". There is a perception that people only go there because they have failed in the grammar school sector. A promotional and PR exercise is needed to showcase the achievements of people whoattend further education colleges. It is not quite pastoral care, rather a holistic approach to young people.That vital component is missing in some colleges.
2505.
Mr Hatch:The Committee, and higher educationin general, fits in to the top end of the system. I want tosee "seamless" education, where people can move froman academic career to a professional career without stigma.
2506.
There are budget limitations. In the light of the foot-and-mouth crisis it will be even tighter in future years. It is important that the Committee looks closely at value for money. There are 17 further educationcolleges in Northern Ireland and rather than all collegescompeting for similar courses, colleges should be identified which can provide the highest standards of delivery in each area.
2507.
The Upper Bann Institute, for example, has been nominated as an ICT centre of excellence by the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment and engineering runs a very close second. The institute could handle higher level ICT and it could also become a centre of excellence for engineering. Specific funding should be directed to this type of system. If another college has expertise in acertain subject, funding should be directed towards that.
2508.
We would like the Committee to consider the removal of capping, which has been a problem that has inhibited the growth of the institute.
2509.
Mr Reaney mentioned linkages with the Universityof Ulster. We would like to develop links with Queen's University, but there are difficulties in encouraging Queen's to look at this area and provide research and development for industry. This should apply to established and future industries.
2510.
Careers guidance has been mentioned. The problem is that careers teachers in further education colleges, and more especially in grammar schools, tell us that students, rather than getting out and examining the wider world, should look at other options. Students tend to turn to the soft options - for example, businessstudies - and at the end of their studies they cannot findjobs. On the other hand, there is a shortage of engineers,nurses and psychiatrists, and there are shortages in the hospitality industry. As soon as students leave the caredepartments in Banbridge and Lurgan, they are employed.There are also shortages in this area.
2511.
The furniture design department at the Lurgancampus is unique to Northern Ireland. It produces excellentwork and we have a history of furniture design becauseAllwoods have manufactured in the area for generations. If any of you have an opportunityto visit the Lurgan campus, you should, to see the standardof workmanship and design. It is an eye-opener.
2512.
The Chairperson:Thank you. That was a very useful and broad introduction.
2513.
Mr Carrick:Mr Reaney, in your presentation you referred to examples of good training practice in the Training Direct model at the Upper Bann Institute. Your submission stated that funding should be given toestablish a business unit in each further education institute,similar to models in the regional technical colleges in the South of Ireland. That would provide a one-stopshop for companies or economic development bodies andwould create a system of traditional and tailor-made courses. Could you elaborate on Training Direct? Does the Training Direct model reflect your submission?
2514.
Mr Reaney:The Upper Bann Institute wouldbe best suited to clarify that and representatives of its boardof governors are sitting beside me. My understanding is that it does embrace that. As I indicated, TrainingDirect is a business-oriented outward-looking organisationthat goes out to see what industry wants. It is in its infancy and will evolve and develop, and it may well move to a point where it can be more comprehensive in the services that it provides, along the lines of our submission. This is something which should be encouraged and supported, not only locally but also at a regional level in terms of how colleges might be supported in order to develop that model and expand it.
2515.
Mr Hatch:This is not a business unit of 500, 1,000 or 10,000 square feet, but a business department within the Upper Bann Institute that directly benefits the development of business as a whole. It is not a business-building unit.
2516.
Mr Dallat:You have praised the Dixon plan highly but you have made no reference to literacy and numeracy problems in the work place. Is there any evidence to suggest that you have been spared the excesses of literacy and numeracy problems that the rest of Northern Ireland experiences, or are they here in Craigavon also?
2517.
Mr Crowe:As an education board member, and as a member of the boards of governors of local primary schools, secondary schools and colleges, I can say that literacy and numeracy are still severe problems. We must get back to basics, as politicians in England have said on a number of occasions. First, we do not have a proper nursery education system. This issue has been toyed with - play areas and so on. A start must be made at nursery schools and carried into primary schools, because by the time children reach the second tier, it is too late.
2518.
Moy Park has had problems in this area, mainly with people from outside the area. Moy Park runs special evening courses for its own staff. As a member of the Association of Northern Ireland Education and Library Boards, I know that this is a big problem throughout Northern Ireland and steps are being taken to try to do something about it.
2519.
Changes in education and the curriculum have put teachers under incredible pressure. Because they have to make reports on so many issues, they have too much clerical work to allow them to get on with the job of teaching.
2520.
Ms Kelly:The mayor has covered the Moy Park situation, and no doubt the firm's representatives will tell you more. My point is that early education happens on the mother's or father's knee. That is where there has been a difficulty. There is a generation of adults who are parents who can neither read nor write, or donot value reading and writing skills. That problem mustbe addressed, along with the issue of ensuring that libraries and books are accessible. One of my teachers said that a child should be encouraged from the moment that he or she can grasp a book. We need that sort of parenting because it is valuable to a young person's development. The skills can then be passed on to the next generation. As elsewhere, literacy is a problem here.
2521.
Mr J Kelly:Thank you for your presentation and for inviting us here. The Fasttrack to IT (FIT) scheme in Dublin interests me. I presume that you have looked at it and if so, have you entered into any joint ventures with the people involved to try to assimilate the ideas or mirror the success that they have had?
2522.
Mr Reaney:The Upper Bann Institute is pursuing that issue but I am not up to date on it. In principle, however, the council would support those kinds of linkages.
2523.
Mr Crowe:The Upper Bann Institute has one of the best centres. It has the latest equipment and allthe lecturers and people involved are top-notchers. We also have our arm's-length company, the Craigavon IndustrialDevelopment Organisation (CIDO). Its technology centre in Lurgan is on a par with the further and higher education institute. We are taking the issue seriously.A number of individuals and companies in this area have been pioneers in information technology and the drawingup of systems. We have been forced to cater for that situation, and I believe that we are catering well.
2524.
Mr Byrne:Given that this is such a strong industrial area and the fact - as has been mentioned - that there is a bottleneck of skills, have the mayor or his colleagues any views on modern apprenticeships and technical skills training?
2525.
Mr Crowe:I am glad you mentioned that becauseI intended to raise it myself. I am a trained mechanical and electrical engineer. I served my time in Belfast. I started off at five shillings per week and I had to pay my train fare out of that. When I was finished I would have had £4 or £5 at the very most.
2526.
I ran a motor business for 48 years. When a young fellow came to work for me I made it a condition that he had to attend the day release schemes at "the tech". I went through that system myself. I had to go to the tech and over some 10 years I took many extra subjects. I found that experience invaluable in later years when I was running my own business. We must return to that. The engineers and workmen of today can hardly drive a nail in straight. They need experience, and they need to get it right from the start. Today's fitters and motor mechanics are able to fit a new part; however, they are not able to fix an old part. We need to have skilled people who are capable of doing this work for the benefit of everyone.
2527.
Mr Hatch:I receive engineering books and they detail a shortage of hands-on engineers. We have people who might have degrees in mechanical engineering, but if you set them down at a circuit board to sort out a problem, they would not have a clue. They do not have the mental agility and manual dexterity.
2528.
Some training and employment agencies have been set up and privatised and they deal with clerical and other staff and there is some credibility in terms of those agencies that are validating courses for them. It is possible to go to a further education college, do a course or two on training and recruitment, set up on your own and then get somebody else to validate you. It does not mean very much. The proof of the pudding is when an employer hires someone with a certificate which states that he has done x, y and z. The employer then puts him down to do a job and he does not know where to start.
2529.
The Government needs to look at the validation of apprenticeships, and we should start using the word "apprenticeship". Modern apprenticeships confuse employers. They think that if someone has spent four years doing x, y and z, it means a lot. If we start splitting off into one- or two-man businesses which then start training people and claim that they are skilled to do x, y and z, it does not mean much and it is ruining the good name of perfectly good providers of that training.
2530.
Mr Beggs:It is interesting that this borough has one of the lowest levels of unemployment. Have you learned any lessons through your contacts? Have local organisations been forced to go out and address people in the community who do not have basic educational skills? Have any lessons been applied here which, because of the urgency of finding employable people, can be passed on to other parts of Northern Ireland? You are at the coalface and you could facilitate development.
2531.
Mr Reaney:I will respond by using an example from one of our local companies, Moy Park, which operates a factory shift system. In terms of tapping into the potential market, its shifts have been designed to be family-friendly. It has had to be flexible in the timings of its shifts and it almost has an open house arrangement. Moy Park has adapted its shift systems to suit the times that people, especially mothers, are available to work. It has short shifts and unusual shifts that attract people to the company.
2532.
Some companies have made initiatives of this kind, finding out where the potential is and tapping into it. Companies are looking beyond our area in a bid to attract people to either commute or to live here. The council is promoting Craigavon and recommending it as an attractive place in which to live, thereby creating a bigger labour pool for local firms.
2533.
We would like to see available jobs rising in quality. Many jobs are available at the lower end of the industrial scale but we would like to see an expansion into technical, engineering and ICT skills. People who currently live here and commute to their work places would then have the option of jobs in the area.
2534.
Mr Hatch:The Upper Bann Institute and theT&EA went into areas of Brownlow, where "boat" peopleand Belfast people with no skills lived, who perhaps had an unemployment history going back generations. They have conducted education courses suited to those people so that they are employable. More and more of those people are coming back into the work place because they were provided with on-the-spot, tailor-made education.
2535.
Mr Crowe:I am involved with one of the community companies, Brownlow Ltd, and severalorganisations have identified people who are unemployedand/or long-term unemployed, even unemployable.Using European money, they have been sent to Germanyand France to allow them to see what is going on elsewhere, and they have come back changed people. Some people originally came with Goodyear, lost their job and did not get another one. These people need to be retrained and we are working with them through several different organisations, and there has been some success.
2536.
The Chairperson:On behalf of the Committee, I thank you for your submission, your presentation, and for taking questions. It has been very interesting, andwe wish you well in your continuing efforts in Craigavon.
2537.
Mr Crowe:Thank you. We wish you well in your task. We are sold on education, improvement and doing everything we can to help all the people of Northern Ireland.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 3 May 2001
Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Mr R Hutchinson
Mr J Kelly
Mrs Nelis
Witnesses:
Mrs S Turbitt)North American Coal
Miss C Corey)CompanyOrganisation
2538.
The Chairperson:I would like to welcomerepresentatives from the North American Coal CompanyOrganisation (NACCO). We have with us Suzanne Turbitt,the human resources officer, and Caroline Corey,the training and development officer. We are grateful to you for coming and we are interested in getting the anglefrom your own company, which is a substantial American-owned inward investor in Northern Ireland,and to see what perspective that brings to the relationshipbetweentraining and broader economic developments.
2539.
Perhaps you could make a brief introduction and we could then proceed to questions.
2540.
Mrs Turbitt:We are part of the NACCO MaterialsHandling Group Inc and we provide design, engineering, manufacturing and administrative support for Hyster and Yale brand lift trucks, which are sold throughout the world. Our head office is in Portland, Oregon.
2541.
The NACCO Materials Handling Group has 15 manufacturing locations in nine countries. In Europe, Africa and the Middle East, the NACCO Materials Handling Group employs over 3,000 people in ourmanufacturing, sales and marketing locations. Craigavonis the largest, most vertically integrated facility worldwide,representing 15% of the group's turnover. Construction commenced on a greenfield site in August 1979 and was completed in April 1981. The present workforce comprisessome 800 employees. The plant has the capacityto build more than 90 trucks a day. In the previous six years the company has invested in the region of £40 million in capital equipment.
2542.
Our manufacturing operations include CNC machining, robotic welding systems, CNC and laser profile cutters, hydraulic presses and tool manufacture. We have painting processes, a hydraulic cylinder plant, transmissions plant and assembly operations. We havestores and shipping departments, and supporting servicedepartments. I hope this gives you an overview of the company and its operations.
2543.
Mr Beggs:As the company is part of an international group, do you think that any lessons canbe learned in Northern Ireland by comparing our system of further and higher education with the systemsthat you have experienced in other parts of the world? Are there areas where you think that improvements could be made to our system in terms of links between education, training and industry?
2544.
Miss Corey:Our Nijmegen facility follows the German model, and many apprentices come into the organisation to be trained for the NACCO Materials Handling Group. However, in Craigavon, we find that we have to tailor our market and operations to suit the requirements of the apprenticeship. That is one area where we could learn from other practices.
2545.
Mr Beggs:Do you think that modern apprenticeships need to be tailored more towards the needs of the company instead of following set criteria?
2546.
Miss Corey:Yes. We have some difficulty with meeting the requirements of the NVQ Level 3 apprenticeship.
2547.
Mr Carrick:I would like to go into that issue a little more. The company was founded in 1979 on agreenfield site with 800 employees. What have you experienced in the process of establishing your 800-strong workforce? What difficulties have you encountered,and how did you overcome those difficulties in order to obtain the skilled employees that you need? What links have you established with training organisations? I am particularly interested in local organisations such as the Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education. Do you find that those organisations are useful to you, ordo you have to look beyond the local training establishmentsto get the level of skill that you need?
2548.
Mrs Turbitt:The plant currently has 800 employees; this would not have been the case when the plant was established in 1979. We had some problems recruiting semi-skilled and skilled operatives. The company has, however, taken measures to address the problem. We work closely with Training Direct at the Upper Bann Institute in relation to areas such as CNC training and welding.
2549.
Mr Carrick:Do you provide in-house training, or are people trained externally?
2550.
Mrs Turbitt:We train employees to a large extent in-house but we have also tried to source external training. Depending on the nature of the job, we may try to train people prior to coming into the work place.
2551.
Mr Carrick:Do you find that that is more cost-efficient, or did you do that out of necessity?
2552.
Mrs Turbitt:I do not think that it is morecost-efficient. We would take this option out of necessity.
2553.
Miss Corey:It was necessary to use external training for welders. We needed welders so we had toput a training programme in place outside the company.We introduced a lifelong learning initiative in 1999 as part of the company's career development scheme. That aims to help people to focus on their training and career development, and it helped us to establish links with the local colleges, especially the Upper BannInstitute and its Training Direct programme. The collegeshave been very flexible and provide courses to suit shift patterns. For example, they will run the same course twice a week so that people can attend the class that suits their working hours.
2554.
The training programme has also afforded the company a win-win situation, in that people attend courses in their own time, while the company providesthe funding for the courses. Many of the people involved in the first programme were interested in CNC machining. Those people would have traditionallybeen unskilled workers in assembly areas who had decided that they wanted to move into semi-skilled roles such as CNC machining. The Upper Bann Institute provided courses for these people. The company, therefore, had a wider pool from which to recruit CNC machinists. That is all done in-house, and the company must move things forward because there are difficulties in recruiting CNC machinists outside of that pool. It is an industry-based initiative.
2555.
Mr Dallat:Do companies have an importantrole to play in widening access to education and training,and developing an entrepreneurial culture in business?
2556.
Miss Corey:Companies need to be flexible and have an important role to play in helping individuals to develop their skills.
2557.
Mr Dallat:Does training help to break down unfortunate titles such as "unskilled", "semi-skilled" and all the terms we use to differentiate people?
2558.
Miss Corey:Training gives people the opportunityto develop themselves. That development will break down labels such as "unskilled" workers. Companies are moving towards a more technological age; forexample, in the past year almost 200 traditionally unskilledworkers from our company undertook computer literacycourses, which helped them to move up a stage. The organisation also benefits in that if it introduces technology to the shop floor, individuals are skilled and ready.
2559.
Mr Dallat:Is there an important spin-off for the company with regard to how long employees stay with their employers?
2560.
Mrs Turbitt:The average employee service is eight years. However, we have many long-service employees, some with 20 years' service. We try to provide opportunities for employees to develop within the organisation. This has a positive effect with regard to company loyalty. NACCO has operatives - we do not classify in terms of semi-skilled, skilled, or non-skilled workers. We promote multiskilling and we encourage operatives to train in many operations, thereby increasing their skills and flexibility.
2561.
Mr Dallat:I am referring to the terms that you used.
2562.
Miss Corey:The company differentiates betweenassembly operations and manufacturing operations.The traditional terms were "unskilled" and "semi-skilled".
2563.
Mrs Nelis:Your company manufactures the entire forklift truck operation. Do you recruit young people straight from school, for example, 16 year olds? Do you offer them skills training and do you allow them to continue their education through day release or whatever?
2564.
There is a skills shortage in engineering. Everyoneseems to be directed into the area of information technology. How many engineers does your firm turn out? What other professional skills or trades does your company give to young people coming straight from school? What are the benefits? Would it be an improvement if 16 year olds went straight into a firm and were given an apprenticeship, for example, in aparticular engineering skill while simultaneously pursuingthe academic needs of that particular profession? Isthat working in your firm? Could training be improved?
2565.
Mrs Turbitt:Our young recruits are usually at least 18 years old. We operate a two and three shift pattern, five days a week, with apprentices being the only exception. We also offer year-long placements for students, and we sponsor student bursaries whereby we sponsor a student through university financially and give them the opportunity to gain experience within the company, with the end result that they are in a strong position to secure employment.
2566.
Miss Corey:We currently have eight modern apprentices, three in maintenance, which is focused on engineering, and one in our tool room. It is useful to have apprentices in these departments and the gain to them is an engineering qualification.
2567.
They are given day release to attend the Upper Bann Institute. They study for a BTEC HNC in mechanical and manufacturing engineering and then go on to NVQ Level 3 in production engineering. That works well in departments such as maintenance and tool making. However, in other engineering sectors we found that we could not provide what was needed to attain NVQ Level 3. At the end of their apprenticeship we cannot guarantee that they will move into an engineering role.
2568.
Mrs Nelis:Do operators form the bulk of your workforce?
2569.
Miss Corey:Yes.
2570.
Mrs Nelis:Are we talking about low skills?
2571.
Miss Corey:There are different levels of skills. CNC machinists and welders are skilled.
2572.
Mrs Turbitt:We have a considerable numberof engineers, some of whom are graduates. Alternatively,an individual may come into the organisation at the age of 18, be trained throughout their employment, gain various skills and work their way up to the position ofengineer. There are therefore various routes to becomingan engineer within the company.
2573.
Mr J Kelly:As a traditional time-servedapprentice, I am interested in the engineering side. You mentioned the difficulties between skilled and semi-skilledoperators and problems with apprenticeships. What difficulties do you have with apprenticeships?
2574.
Miss Corey:Maintenance and tool making are not termed "skilled" in our organisation. We can bring in a student and train him as a craftsman.
2575.
CNC machinists are semi-skilled. At the end of an individual's apprenticeship, he is still deemed an operator.
2576.
Mr J Kelly:At the end of that?
2577.
Miss Corey:Yes. It would be better for the youngperson to go into maintenance or tool making, where there are only two or three apprenticeships per year.
2578.
Mr J Kelly:Do you think of welding as semi-skilled?
2579.
Mrs Turbitt:No. Due to the nature of our business, we require a high level of skill in that area. All our employees are termed operatives; however, wehave to differentiate between various skills requirements.
2580.
Mr J Kelly:When you say "operative", what do you differentiate between?
2581.
Mrs Turbitt:If we were advertising for welders,we would not ask for semi-skilled operatives; we would ask for welders.
2582.
Mr J Kelly:Do you ask for welders or operatives?
2583.
Mrs Turbitt:We would advertise for welders. Other vacancies may be advertised as "operatives", stating the department and skills required.
2584.
Mr J Kelly:Do you have a difficulty with that?
2585.
Mrs Turbitt:A welder requires certain skills whereas an assembly operative would not have to betrained to the same standard on joining the company. Weprovide the assembly operative's training. However,this is not usually the situation with a welder; we require them to have prior welding skills and experience.
2586.
Mr J Kelly:Are your welders up to x-ray standard?
2587.
Mrs Turbitt:Yes.
2588.
Mr J Kelly:Do you have any difficulty with image problems in recruitment - in terms of religion, for example?
2589.
Mrs Turbitt:No. We have a very balanced workforce.
2590.
The Chairperson:Many questions seem to indicate that Committee members are trying to form a picture of NACCO's skills profile. What percentage of your workforce in Craigavon are graduates and what percentage are apprentice trained or the equivalent?
2591.
Mrs Turbitt:I do not have a breakdown of the figures with me, but I could submit it to the Committee later.
2592.
The Chairperson:That might be useful.
2593.
Mr Byrne:Miss Corey talked about the difficultiesof matching the requirements of the certification bodies with your company's training. Is GNVQ Level 3 too theoretical, or is it not directly related to the work that you want people to do?
2594.
Miss Corey:It is not directly related to the workthat we want people to do. It is good for maintenanceand tool making areas, which is why we have no problem in recruiting apprentices to those areas. However,in traditional semi-skilled areas they have difficulty meeting the standard requirements. They would have to be flexed into maintenance and tool making, which is inconsistent with production.
2595.
Mr J Kelly:Are there any union difficulties in the company?
2596.
Mrs Turbitt:No. We have fairly good employeerelations within the company.
2597.
Mr J Kelly:Do you have a union?
2598.
Mrs Turbitt:Yes, we do.
2599.
Mr Carrick:You currently have 800 employeesand have difficulties in obtaining skilled labour. Is this hampering the company's expansion? Is it inhibiting or delaying that expansion? If the right supply of skilled labour were available, would you recruit more people?
2600.
Mrs Turbitt:We have had some difficulty inrecruiting people with the necessary skills and experience.However, any difficulties experienced have not had a significant impact in relation to company expansion, to my knowledge.
2601.
Mrs Nelis:Do you go into schools and institutesto recruit employees? Do you work with the careers guidance people, and do you find them helpful?
2602.
Mrs Turbitt:We work closely with a number of schools. We go to careers fairs and exhibitions and we participate in various education/industry initiatives such as interview skills training. School visits are beneficial because they give students some background knowledge on what the company does and the working environment. However, some apprentices may still get a shock when they first come into an engineering firmbecause they have not had enough background knowledgeabout the industry and environment. More preparation by careers advisers may be helpful.
2603.
Mr J Kelly:I am struck by the fact that you are both female. What is the gender ratio in the company?
2604.
Mrs Turbitt:It is predominantly male.
2605.
Mr J Kelly:Do you have a fair percentage of females working there?
2606.
Miss Corey:The figure is about 6%.
2607.
Mrs Turbitt:That is probably correct, although I do not have the exact figure with me today.
2608.
Mr J Kelly:Do you have female apprentices?
2609.
Mrs Turbitt:We do not have female apprenticesatpresent. However, we have a number of female engineers.
2610.
Mr J Kelly:Is that at the design level?
2611.
Mrs Turbitt:No. The female engineers whom we currently employ are based in manufacturing and quality.
2612.
Mr Beggs:You said that you were proactive about going to schools and educating teachers and pupils in the world of industry. Do you, for instance, organise school visits so that students can see what anindustrial environment is like? Do you think the educationsector and society value the worth and importance of the engineering sector, or is it perceived as not being as worthwhile as the professions? I trained as an engineer, and I think that people would be more impressed if I had studied medicine or dentistry. Does society's perception of engineering need to change so that people will value the manufacturing sector?
2613.
Mrs Turbitt:"Engineering" is a very broad-basedterm. Many people perceive themselves to be engineers in various occupations and industries. We organise school visits and work experience. However, our factory involves some heavy engineering and some students may be discouraged initially because of their perception of the environment. An hour-long tour would not really be sufficient to give them an idea of the company's business.
2614.
Miss Corey:The education sector is beginningto give credence to the importance of industry. In the pastcouple of years we have worked with the University ofUlster Northern Ireland Science and Technology RegionalOrganisation (NISTRO) project. We bring in lower- sixth-form students to work on engineering projects. These are not necessarily students who have decided that they want to go into engineering, but they do want an insight. Perhaps they are studying maths, chemistry or biology at A level but have not yet decided what they want to do. It gives them an opportunity for experience.
2615.
Mrs Nelis:The name, the North American Coal Corporation, intrigues me. How did that originate?
2616.
Mrs Turbitt:The company is American owned and it has three business arms, one of which is lignite mining, primarily as fuel for power generation by electric utilities.
2617.
Mr Byrne:Is the research and design team forforklift trucks based here, or are new products designedelsewhere?
2618.
Mrs Turbitt:There is a product design team, with five engineers, on site. The group's main research and development facility is based in Portland, Oregon, which is the group's headquarters.
2619.
Mr Byrne:Is the Craigavon design team importantto the group?
2620.
Mrs Turbitt:Yes, they are important; they are responsible for design maintenance and value improvement activity.
2621.
The Chairperson:Mr Byrne made a good pointabout the extent of design undertaken here. Supplementaryto that, how many higher degrees - PhDs or whatever - are there in engineering?
2622.
Miss Corey:No one has a PhD in our Craigavonplant, but there are two chartered engineers.
2623.
Mr Carrick:I am a local person and interestedin the interaction between the company and the education system. I am sure that NACCO has had some experiencesduring the 20-odd years that it has operated here. What improvements would you like to see in linkages with other organisations?
2624.
Miss Corey:NACCO has been working closely with the Upper Bann Institute, which has been flexible in providing courses for the organisation's training needs. The courses are flexible and meet shift patterns. However, I think that NACCO needs to work more closely with the Upper Bann Institute with regard to the quality of courses provided because the institute may not use the same type of machines - CNC machining, for example - or machine language thatNACCO uses. Linkages would be improved if we workedmore closely in the design of the training programmes. The improvements may not necessarily lead to qualifications but they would provide better training for the organisation.
2625.
Mr Carrick:What mechanism has NACCO identified to make that happen?
2626.
Miss Corey:NACCO is working closely with Training Direct and our plant manager, Alan Little, chaired the first meeting.
2627.
Mr Carrick:Is the Upper Bann Institute being responsive to your requests for the harmonisation of machine languages?
2628.
Miss Corey:Yes, to an extent, but the institute is having difficulties with costings and the number of students that NACCO can provide. NACCO wanted to run a CNC machining course with the institute, but could only provide six people for that course. The institute's quota was a minimum of 12 people, so if NACCO could only provide six people, there would be an increased charge. The Upper Bann Institute needs to open out to other manufacturing organisations, which is what Training Direct is aiming to do.
2629.
Mr Beggs:Your company is investing a significantamount of money in organising in-house training for students and out-house training from external tutors. Doyou think that Northern Ireland companies are investingenough money in training? Are people you have trained to a higher level being poached? How can we encourage more people to invest in training?
2630.
Miss Corey:It is difficult to evaluate the return on investment in training, and that is particularly true for smaller companies. A company could invest £2,000 to £3,000 per year on someone who goes to another company that pays better. The company's philosophy is to train. If you train people, they might leave, but if you do not train them, they might stay and you are left with an organisation of untrained people.
2631.
Companies that offer better salaries have poachedindividuals from NACCO. However, the return on investment in training is substantial. An employee might leave eventually, but they are very useful when they are still with us.
2632.
Mr Beggs:Are other companies investing enoughmoney? Do industries in Northern Ireland want people trained on the cheap, without having to invest?
2633.
Miss Corey:My own perception, but not necessarily the perception of the organisation, is that other companies do not invest enough in training. NACCO is a forward-thinking company when it comes to training.
2634.
The Chairperson:The company has varioussubsidiaries. Is the skills profile in Craigavon lower than in the Netherlands or in the United States, for example?Could this be explained by the fact that there are substantialwage differences between countries, as thereare across the manufacturing sector as a whole? Do labourproductivity levels differ between thecompany's subsidiaries? Those questions may be difficultto answerunless you have a bird's-eye view of the whole company.
2635.
Miss Corey:I can partly answer the questions by using the Nijmegen plant as an example. It has had huge difficulties in recruiting welders because the Netherlands does not have many welders. We hope to be able to address issues such as this as we move towards being a European-focused organisation.
2636.
Mr Byrne:What type of organisational structure is there in the company? Does it operate the just-in-timesystem or a team-working system? How is the productionsystem managed?
2637.
Mrs Turbitt:The company uses a process called"demand flow technology", which is a mathematically based way of designing the manufacturing process and incorporates the use of a kanban system.
2638.
Employees work within self-managed teams, whichthe company continually develops. The company does not have a supervisory level; there are superintendentswho report to the local leadership team, which comprisesseven managers. The company structure is, therefore, fairly flat.
2639.
The Chairperson:I would like to thank you onbehalf of the Committee. The presentation was extremelyinteresting. You answered questions on a wide anddetailed area of the operations of your plant in Craigavonand on the company generally. It was a helpful insight into the training position of your type of engineeringand inward investment in an American-owned company.The Committee will reflect on what you said and we wish you well with your work.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 3 May 2001
Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Mr R Hutchinson
Mrs Nelis
Witnesses:
Mr J Cromie) Moy Park
Mr A Gibson)
2640.
Mrs Carson:I wish to put on record a non-financial interest. A member of my family is employed by Moy Park.
2641.
The Chairperson:On behalf of the CommitteeI welcome Mr John Cromie, human resources manager,and Mr Alan Gibson, purchasing director, both from Moy Park. Thank you for coming and for the written submission that the company has given to the inquiry. We are pleased to be able to meet you in the locality where your major plant is based. If you would make a short introductory statement we can then move to questions and answers.
2642.
Mr Gibson:Peter Wolf, our commercial director,sends his apologies. He is in Brazil this week - obviously, as part of an international company, these things can happen at short notice. He has asked me to step in, so I will do my best to facilitate and answer any questions.
2643.
We want to take this opportunity to give evidenceon three main areas. One is the importance of the food industry - and as Chairman of the Northern Ireland Food and Drink Association I have a particular interest in ensuring that the food industry is not seen as a sunset industry, but as a dynamic, innovative, growth industry. It is true to say that there has been a certain amount of consolidation in the agri-processing sectordue to market forces. However, within food processing,and the work that has been done, it is certainly not a sunset industry. The agri-processing sector employs 70,000 people, directly and indirectly, and has over 300 food companies with a combined turnover of £2·5 billion, and 23% of all manufacturing products sold in Northern Ireland is from food. Nine per cent of all exports from Northern Ireland is food, and 18% of all employees in manufacturing are in the food industry.Therefore, it is strategically and economically fundamentalto the Northern Ireland economy.
2644.
Regarding our position as a global player, we are part of an American owned company called OSI. We are run very much as a local company, with local management. Decision-making is done locally, but we have the opportunity to benchmark and get experience of international business.
2645.
We firmly believe there is a need for increased funding to help local education providers to meet the needs of the industry, because there is a vacuum and shortfall. We have done some work with the Upper Bann Institute and others such as East Tyrone Institute and Loughry College. We want those types of colleges and education providers to have sufficient funding to meet the needs of the industry. If you look at the food industry as a whole and our educational system, it is fair to say that the top 20% of our students in Northern Ireland are as good as anywhere in Europe. We have no issues with the high level of education. The middle band schools, and the middle level of achievement is average - it is satisfactory. However, the one area we are concerned about is the bottom 20% of society that comes out of the educational system. Predominantly that 20% goes to work in the food industry. If you extrapolate that forward, if the food industry is not there, how do we, as a society, help to develop and train those people and give them a sense of worth? There is a broader social issue, but I do not want to push that too far at this stage.
2646.
Through the process we will also look at theranking of the UK - what we call the Anglo-Americanmodel - which is very much focused on the academic route. We have three factories in France, and our experience there has shown us that French students in our sector come out very well qualified, with a broad based experience both of practical science and life. We have good experience of German factories, having two sister plants there. Through that experience we have found that students qualifying there have a good vocational and specialist training. They have a good experience of life and are much more rounded as individuals. I can speak personally here as a graduate of Queen's University's Food Sciencecourse. I thoroughly enjoyed that course, but on reflectionI feel that taking a year out as part of a sandwich course would have better prepared me for a career in the food industry.
2647.
We have had experience of skills shortage at graduate level, and still do. We have extreme difficulty in recruiting and retaining graduates of suitable calibre in the industry. It could be technical or production, but we have to make a lot of effort to do that. Each year we see that becoming more and more difficult as there is competition from other sectors in industry. Also, some of the graduates are not of the standard we would want to recruit. I personally have run a number of job recruitment campaigns for purchasing and it took three recruitment exercises to come up with two suitable candidates. We do not believe in employing people forthe sake of filling job, they have got to be the right people.
2648.
We very much believe in the partnership approach,and John Cromie will expand on that. I have touched very briefly on the placement year from Queen's University, which would be a very helpful thing to put into place, and there is also international placement. I know that some students are placed in the USAthrough the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, or some associated overseas organisation, and we want to encourage more of that. There are places for 140students each year, and we should encourage our young people to get as much exposure to the broader global market. When they return they are more rounded, andtheir minds are more open. Unfortunately, outside Northern Ireland, there is not much credence given to our political situation - the world is moving on. We are very aware, as an international player, that we mustensure that our young people have a global perspective.
2649.
To generalise, we recommend increased fundingand specific courses, increased emphasis on sandwich years and international placement years, and participationin course setting between industry and the education providers, and the need for greater partnership with Queen's University and Loughry college. Again, we want to see the industry and the academic institutions working closely together to tailor the whole delivery to the needs. There is an opportunity for us to work and collaborate more closely together.
2650.
I will now pass over to John Cromie who will give some specific detail.
2651.
Mr Cromie:I felt it would be useful today to highlight some of the partnership approaches that we have had with local education providers and local companies in the Craigavon area, and tell you a little bit about the experiences we have had in that respect. My main function is working within the agriculturalagri-processing division. I am based in Dungannon. There is also a human resources manager based in Craigavonforthat division. I have had some experience in the Craigavonfactory too, and I have been in Dungannon for the last three years. I felt qualified to come along today and speak about the Craigavon initiatives especially. I am sort of wearing two hats, because we do some of these initiatives in the local Tyrone area, as well with the Dungannon factory.
2652.
I want to highlight some of the core initiatives that we have been involved in - in partnership with local employers and educational providers as a kind of triangle approach. The wide-open learning initiative isone that Moy Park has been involved with in Craigavon.There is a computer suite available to us at the Upper Bann Institute. We have been working along with the North American Coal Corporation Organisation (NACCO), who have just been in here before us, and also Ulster Carpet Mills to recognise some of the computer skill shortages that we see in our industries and companies. We have been working specifically on this new initiative called the European Computer Driving Licence. We see that as important to our industry, as indeed do industries such as Ulster Carpet Mills, with the increasing use of automated machinery. Employees need to have keyboard skills to operate pricing machines and weighing machines in our factory. These are core skills that are important for our industries as a joint partnership approach. To date, there are around 60 people working towards that particular qualification, and there has been a high level of interest in the factory and the offices, and also from the salaried people in both. We see that as a successful involvement with other businesses.
2653.
We have quite a strong partnership with thelocal college, the Upper Bann Institute. We have a partnership approach in a number of different areas, including a numeracy and literacy programme. Alan Gibson has mentioned the bottom 20% of society, and that quite a large proportion of those people work inthe food industry. We carried out a survey, as our paper to the Committee shows, and we also do induction questionnaires when people join us. At that stage we try to assess their numeracy and literacy skills. The need for numeracy and literacy is very important, speaking specifically of Moy Park in this instance. We need people to be able to recognise date codes and products. Many of the sleeves that go on some of our products are very similar in colour, but there are differences in the ingredients in certain products. This is an example of how we see the importance of ensuring we have the right blend of numeracy and literacy. Employees have to count a certain number of products into a tray or box. For that reason we feel it is important to recognise difficulties in those areas, and we try to counter them.
2654.
Our solution was to train five in-house tutors - people that the operatives on the floor could recognise and relate to. They act as tutors and mentors to staff during their time with the company. We also use IT to try and remove the stigma of taking extra classes in numeracy and literacy, for example. We give people the opportunity to train for the driving licence theory test. When other workers in the factory asked them why they were leaving the factory, they would be told about the training. In that way we were able to bring those people along as well. We allow them to use the technology in the computer suite that we have built in the factory itself, which helps them to pick up those skills. We develop that further, and to try to discover what other skill shortages they had. To date this has been very successful, with 20 people having gone through in the last year.
2655.
We have been working at other partnerships,dealing with our multi-skilling approach to engineering.We work closely with the Upper Bann Institute, which took over the old Craigavon Training Centre where we would have got most of our apprentices in the past. We are now trying to multi-skill our skilled maintenance engineers and electricians, so that the maintenance fitters can work on electrics, and vice versa. We are taking that approach forward, based on the Engineering Training Council guidelines, with the NVQs at Levels 2 and 3 that a lot of the apprentices are currentlyworking on. That gives us a greater degree of flexibilityand skills. It enables people to gain new skills in order to justify higher wage rates. We have recognised that there are skill shortages among experienced fitters and electricians. Mr Gibson has mentioned that we have had to re-run and re-advertise interviews and job applications. We have also had the same experience in trying to get skilled maintenance people.
2656.
We also have some IT training at higher levels. Within the last year we have moved from Lotus Smart Suite to Microsoft systems. We had a need for training in Microsoft Excel, as we are no longer using the old Lotus 123 spreadsheet system. In partnership with the Upper Bann Institute, we are using their computer suite facilities to give our accounts and wages staff the opportunity to brush up on their skills, and learn the new Microsoft packages.
2657.
Finally, I will mention our NVQ approach in the factory. Moy Park is very proud of our NVQ work, which has been taking place over the last five years. To date, in the three factories, we have over 1,000 people who have achieved NVQ Level 2 in meat and poultry operations. A further 20 people went on to successfullytake Level 3, and five people have achieved NVQ Level 4,and we are very proud of that. Through taking those people through Levels 3 and 4, we have won major portfolio prizes for them within the meat and poultry industry. This is recognition of our investment, and the skill levels that are flourishing in Northern Ireland. The NVQ approach has helped us to retain labour. It has also helped us to encourage people to take on new qualifications in work. Bearing in mind that some people join us with no formal qualifications, we are able to train them regardless of age, and take them through to NVQ level as well.
2658.
The Chairperson:That was an extremely helpful summary. You have identified literacy problems,and havegone a lot further - giving a useful written submission,and backing it up in your presentation. I detect much compassion in the way that you deal with this. It shocks me that even the most basic literacy skills are sometimes not present, such as reading labels or counting pieces of chicken.
2659.
When these young people come to you with their personal profile from school, does it perhaps indicate incorrectly that they have those skills? My second question is more serious. I am not going toattack the teaching profession. What more can the Government do to emulate what you are doing, and perhaps go further, making sure that when young peopleget to your stage, they do not have these appallingly low levels of literacy and numeracy?
2660.
Mr Cromie:The first indicator we get is the application form. With job clubs at local training and employment agencies and so on, it is not always theperson's handwriting on the application form. On seeing someone's handwriting it is sometimes quick and easyto identify if there is perhaps a potential numeracy and literacy problem through his or her spelling, grammar et cetera. We do not place a great emphasis on that, forexample, in shortlisting for interview. We tend to interview people and let them prove themselves to us socially.
2661.
Once we have identified that, the induction process is their next major hurdle. We have trained our induction co-ordinators to look out for people who are perhaps not taking part in the induction very well because of these issues and problems. We also get them to look at their written submissions when they are filling in their forms. There is some very familiar information that they can fill in quite quickly; they willstruggle with other parts. The co-ordinators are trained to have a sympathetic approach - to speak to them, maybetry to isolate them at tea break and flag this up to themgently, if there is an issue there. They try to get someoneto be a scribe for them, to help them through that documentation. We make sure that we do not take away from their dignity and self-esteem with this approach.
2662.
For the Government to help, we need to workcloser with our education providers, so that they becomemore acutely aware of our needs. In that respect, they can then lobby the Government, and perhaps set aside more information technology (IT) training with more packages based around numeracy and literacy issues. In that way, they are closing the gap before these people actually come to us. People from East Tyrone College of Further & Higher Education, for example, have recently approached us on a numeracy and literacy initiative. They will bring a mobile classroom to the factory, with a mobile computer suite based in the back of a lorry. They can bring people out of the factory to look at IT, and in that way tackle problems of numeracy and literacy.
2663.
Mr Dallat:You have gone to extraordinary lengths, even teaming up with a local primary school.Although the number benefiting from that is very small,it is unique to me and I have never heard of that before.
2664.
Mr Cromie:We also work quite closely with the business education partnership in all of the district council areas. I am involved with that partnership in Dungannon & South Tyrone Borough Council. Using this partnership we can play our part with the local schools and colleges. We give talks to the pupils, making them aware of the company. We also work on the Young Enterprise Northern Ireland system, sending some of our trainee managers to give them training experience in local schools. In that way, we can get themessage across that Moy Park is a training organisation- and more than just a chicken processor. We can get rid of the connotations of a dead end and unexciting job. We talk about our sales, marketing and productdevelopment - the facets that use the latest technology, and which people may not be aware of.
2665.
Mr Carrick:I am a local person, so I am very interested in the contribution that your firm makes to employment in the area. It is true to say that you have had difficulty with recruitment of labour in the past - indeed, you employ people from areas outside the normal travel-to-work area. If there is a lack of locallabour - and you have had to recruit operatives throughrecruitment agencies - how do you protect the integrity of your labour skills base when you take in agency workers? Do they have to go through the induction process, and what level of skills do they bring that is not available in the local area? What level of understanding do you have with the agencies in the type of person they send? I understand that there havebeen difficulties between your existing staff and agencystaff, because the agency staff have different terms and conditions. How do you cope with that and whatdamage, if any, has that done to the production process?
2666.
Mr Gibson:It is not our preference to use temporary or agency operatives, but it is essential in today's labour market. The agency takes a fee and therefore it is more expensive for the company. The learning curve and re-education are an issue. You may be aware that we are bringing in workers from as faraway as Portugal - not by choice, but because we cannotrecruit enough local operatives. That is an indication of how the economy has benefited and grown. It alsoshows that the remaining labour force is unemployable,and we must get them into employment.
2667.
The company must ensure that its assets are utilised. We have millions of pounds invested in assetsand if those assets and machines are not being operated, the business is not sustainable in a global or a Europeanmarket environment. We have gone to great lengths bringing in the Portuguese, because we need staff for the evening and night shift. We must work to fullcapacity every day so that we can service our customersand get recovery through the plant. Our costs increase year-on-year, whether it is the cost of energy or electricity - which in our business in Northern Ireland is up by 25%. We must not let our assets remain idle.From a commercial point of view, we will go to whateverlengths are necessary to remain at full capacity. It is an issue that does need to be managed. It is not the ideal scenario.
2668.
Mr Cromie:In relation to paperwork and training, key elements of induction apply to the temporaryand agency worker. Those key elements would be our hygiene and health and safety procedures, and other types of risk assessment. We have ensured that everything is translated. About one in every four of ourPortuguese staff speak fluent English, and the remainderhave an understanding of English. The agencies are also bringing in temporary staff from Magherafelt, Dungannon, Craigavon and the Belfast area. We do not have as much emphasis on investing in their training. If that person does not reach a minimum standard, we would take steps to ensure they can get there quickly, or look for replacements.
2669.
We have to safeguard the jobs of the Northern Ireland people working in our factories. As Mr Gibson pointed out, our first preference is to Northern Irelandemployees and our own employees as well. Unfortunatelyour district council areas have unemployment levels of 3% to 4%, which is both good and bad. We are taking initiatives, going to the local training and employment agencies to attract the people who are signing on. We have also set up interviews in these agencies in the hope that people may be interested. Our unemployment levels are dropping to the hard core now, leaving only those who are actively avoiding work or are still unable to find employment.
2670.
Mr Carrick:Regulations governing agencyworkers are different to those applying to the workforcethat you would employ directly. That is a weakness in the legislation and this has to be addressed at another level.
2671.
Mr Cromie:They are beginning to address thatin Northern Ireland. For our Portuguese workers, we usereputable international agencies that comply with allUK laws. They give us written assurances to that effect.
2672.
Mr Beggs:Your basic problem appears to be thatyou cannot get enough operatives. In your submission you also said that there are severe skills shortages in particular areas, and you mentioned engineering, information technology (IT), food technical staff and production management. Is the shortage at degree or sub-degree level? Where do you think the additional resources and focus are needed, at the upper rather than the middle educational sector? You also mentioned funding issues that needed to be addressed in thefurther education sector, and that it deserves more priorityin the allocation of resources. Could you explain or expand on this?
2673.
Mr Cromie:Mr Gibson is more informed about the shortages at graduate level through his experience in the purchasing department, which tend to be at thehigher levels. We have already mentioned skills shortagesin the sub-degree level in engineering. As a company we continually invest in an apprenticeship system. We constantly bring apprentices through, and at various timeswe appoint new first and second year apprentices.There are skills shortages in Northern Ireland and theprice of labour seems to be a defining factor. Companiestend to invest less in an apprenticeship system and prefer to take experienced people, offer them a higher wage andnot incur training costs -basically buying in the labour.
2674.
Mr Gibson:Our technical director, Ken Baird, would be looking for qualified personnel from Queen's or Loughry - I have alluded to that in my opening comments. We tend to follow this Anglo-American model, which is very academically based. We want toencourage more graduates to take a year out and get some life experience. It is not an excuse to go to Germanyand drink lots of beer, but to go there and live a little bit.They gain experience of working abroad, and hopefullyachieve a greater level of maturity. The closer the food industry and the academic providers can work together to tailor the courses the better. If we can collaborate it will sharpen the focus on our industrial needs.
2675.
Mr Beggs:You alluded to the "poaching" aspect- a person being trained by one company, and then moving to another company because it has offered an extra 50p an hour. There is a levy on employers in the building sector in Northern Ireland that funds trainingwith the main construction companies. Do you perceivea need for a similar system in the engineering sector?
2676.
Mr Cromie:It would be helpful, encouraging firms to invest in young apprentice engineers and electricians with a view to the long-term. Many manufacturing companies have short-term views and needs. However, we have tended to take a long-term view because we have invested consistently, over a number of years. We have found this system to be useful.
2677.
Mrs Nelis:You are trying to stress the importanceof the food industry, and I agree with you. Every second or third advertisem*nt on television is aboutfood, so you would imagine that the industry would attractpeople, especially those who want secure employment. However, despite your best efforts, you are having difficulty attracting the type of trainee you want. You have flagged up functional illiteracy and numeracy difficulties that exist here - something that theCommittee has addressed before. Prior to your arrival, theMayor said that a unique educational system operates in this area. Obviously that unique educational systemis failing about 20% of young people - maybe becauseit is based on the notion of success and failure. Perhaps that is where we must start that level of psychology.
2678.
You have certain ideas of your own; you said that there is an opportunity here to promote a centre of excellence for food education, which is being missed by the educational system. Can you explain how that should be addressed? You point to France as a model that we might want to explore. You also spoke aboutthe issue of partnerships. You said the more partnershipsthe better, because partnerships develop the issue of multi-skills and help to explore where the gaps are. How can we improve the partnership model? Does that model work in France or Germany?
2679.
I commend you on the fact that you are running the European Computer Driving Licence, which is anexcellent course. I can recommend it because I am doingit myself. I find it useful and, in fact, our council is offering it. How does that course help students that are functionally illiterate, because you need to be quite literate to do it?
2680.
Mr Gibson:We have taken a number of graduatesfrom the French system. Two have come to work inMoy Park in technical and development roles. Comparingsomebody from the French system with someone at graduate level from the Northern Ireland food system, the French graduate would tend to be up and running much quicker. They seem to have a higher level ofmaturity and greater commercial awareness. The sandwichcourse - taking a year out to work in the food industry during your studies - helps you to develop, mature and gain experience. Students from France compliment the practical with the learning, and that is important. Also, agriculture and food are such a huge part of the French economy, and the government has got behindit. They are ensuring that they are focusing on producinghigh quality graduates who are targeted towards the industry. We have gone in to recruit from their system, to bring graduates into Moy Park.
2681.
Here in Craigavon, we operate a partnership with Amsterdam Business School. In my purchasingfunction, I bring in placement students from the businessschool for six months at a time. They come to MoyPark to do a specific job, which has a clear job descriptionand clear responsibility. If we had the same facility in Northern Ireland, I would be delighted to bring undergraduates in for six or twelve months, to work in pre-defined jobs in the industry. That helps us as an employer, in terms of recruitment. If it is a local person, they could be re-employed after graduating. I do not have that opportunity to the same degree, so I have to go to Amsterdam to bring in students. The competency of students from the Dutch system, which we have not touched on, is very high. They are very competent, well rounded people. That is my personal experience, and I pass it on to the Committee, for what it is worth.
2682.
Mr Cromie:I will come back to two of the points that Mrs Nelis made. My understanding of what we could learn from the German model, and emulate, are the close links between their education providers at community level and local German businesses. They tend to touch much more on practical skills. They tailor courses around the practical needs of the people coming out of their education system, and to the needs of the manufacturing economy. Increased funding for local colleges, such as East Tyrone and Upper Bann Institutes, will help them fund and make available more places, and give more options to companies such as ourselves.
2683.
I am encouraged to hear that you are participatingin the European Computer Driving Licence as well. I see that having a knock-on effect. People tell others in the factory about it, and this encourages others in the factory, who have low self-esteem, to go forward when they hear that a colleague has done it and has been pleased with what he or she has achieved.
2684.
In Moy Park, people have embarked on NVQs. We offer the opportunity for advancement through internal advertisem*nts, encouraging people to attain a level two NVQ - or for some jobs, a level three qualification. It is seen as a means of advancement, and we are encouraging them to take as much training as possible. Some of it is done in their own time, which is a real credit to them. It is all about encouragement. The NVQs started by targeting a group of people who then sold it to the others. Word-of-mouth really sells it, and people get excited about it and want to put themselves forward for it.
2685.
Mrs Nelis:Has there been any resistance to training at all?
2686.
Mr Cromie:We get little resistance to the trainingbecause we give people the opportunity to come off-line to do it. We put the resources there, we allow for acertain percentage of additional employment to let peopleget time off-line. They are not pressurised,and we are giving them enough time to carry on with thetraining. At first, people laughed about NVQs. However,as they saw more and more people do it, the message snowballed.People began to see it as a meaningful qualification, andan opportunity for them to learn more about the companyas well, which makes their job more interesting.
2687.
Mr Gibson:I will add just one final fact. Over athree-year period, we would typically spend £1·5 millionon training - 30% is grant-aided - but that is training that, in reality, we should not need to offer. Our competitors, whether they be in Holland or France, are able to use those millions to re-invest in technology, or in other parts of their business.
2688.
Mr Byrne:I thank you for your analytical andinformative written submission. The message is generallyin line with my own thinking. In relation to the in-housetraining, it seems that you are being forced to do that in order to improve the basic skills requirements of your operatives. Do you require closer collaboration withcolleges in order to deliver further NVQs? How flexible,or not, are colleges in tailoring their course provision to suit your needs?
2689.
Mr Gibson addressed the graduate placement programme. Are food technology courses in Northern Ireland too theoretically based and perhaps a little outdated?
2690.
Mr Cromie:I will pick up on the first two points on the NVQs and the inflexibility of colleges. The NVQ system that we use in the meat and poultrycourses is actually based on UK standards. We developedan in-house system, so we actually accredited ourselvesas an NVQ centre. We are able to deliver the NVQs in that way. That had an employment effect in our own area. It also meant that there was local ownership. It was the encouragement of the NVQ manager and assessors that also helped to sell that. There was less collaboration with colleges at that level.
2691.
We are now considering a change in the NVQ to the City & Guilds structure. That is an opportunity for our local colleges to get involved. It would be much more formalised, and in line with what they have previously delivered. There has been a noticeable shift in the flexibility of colleges in the last two years. Loughry College has been excellent of late with us in that regard. Indeed, Upper Bann Institute has also been flexible. They offer Saturday morning classes and willput on two classes in a day so that our night shift workerscan leave work and do two or three hours training. The evening shift workers can also do the training in the morning before they go to work. That flexibility is the way forward for local businesses and colleges to justify expenditure on training, and also to ensure that training is being directed exactly where it is needed.
2692.
Mr Gibson:With regard to the question on graduates and whether the courses are too theoretical I referred to my personal experience. It is 14 years since I left Queen's, so I cannot comment on today's foodscience courses from a personal point of view. However,for a person to spend three or four years of his or her life to study science is a great opportunity, and there is a view that this is a once in a lifetime opportunity that should be encouraged.
2693.
I am a firm believer that anybody who comes out of our education system must be able to be utilized by industry, and deliver value. One way of doing that is to provide people who are rounded. Too much focus on science means that you may never get the roundness that you could have otherwise achieved. Unless you are going into detailed research and technology, you must counter-balance that when you get into your job. It is a personal view, but the more balance that we can have - I referred to the sandwich course - the better. One practical way, with regard to the food science courses in Northern Ireland, is that I, as a director looking to recruit young people, could create openings for year-long placements in specific jobs. It would helpme and also the student. That experience, no matter howtheoretical, would mean that they are so much quicker off the ground whenever they are seeking full-time employment.
2694.
Mr Byrne:I accept the resonance that you aremaking about the sandwich year and the practical experience.I want to know the actual content of the food technology courses and the food science degrees. Are they too abstract in scientific content, with not enough food technology application?
2695.
Mr Gibson:I am not qualified to answer that question in relation to content of today's courses. I can only talk about my own experience, and at that time the emphasis was on science and theory. I cannot give any judgement of today's courses because I do not know the syllabus. I can just look at the output and talk about the sandwich course.
2696.
Mr Bryne:I admire the success of Moy Park,how it has expanded onto mainland Europe and America,and is now part of a global food business. Is the biggest limiting factor the raw material supplies, the sales and marketing areas, or the workforce?
2697.
Mr Gibson:In relation to the future growth of thebusiness, I would say that the biggest threat -setting aside competition - is labour, because at present we are bringing the labour to the assets. In the future, if we are unable to bring in labour, we will have to move our assets worldwide to find labour.
2698.
The Chairperson:Can you give a rough estimateof how many Portuguese workers you have had to bring in as a percentage of the total company? Also, what is the pay rate on those hard-to-fill vacancies - is it at minimum wage or above minimum wage?
2699.
Mr Cromie:It is certainly above minimum wage. Our operatives' rates are approximately £4·10 an hour for the initial four-week training period. With the latest pay rounds and wage negotiations, that is likely to rise. We pay £4·70 to £4·75 for our minimum basic workers at grade C. Our other weekly paid rates go upto £5·15 and above, and supervisory level and above is £6 plus. We are certainly above the current rate of £3·70.
2700.
Mrs Nelis:Can I invite you to Derry? We have 10,000 people unemployed - about 50% of the work force.
2701.
The Chairperson:I thank both Mr Gibson andMr Cromie for their interesting remarks and also for the written submission. We wish you and your companywell in the future. Thank you.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 10 May 2001
Members present:
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Mr R Hutchinson
Ms McWilliams
Mrs Nelis
Witnesses:
Mr Paul Hannigan) Letterkenny Institute of Technology
Mr Jack O'Herlihy)
2702.
The Deputy Chairperson:Good afternoon, youare very welcome. After your presentation, the Committeewill have some questions to put to you.
2703.
Mr Hannigan:In my presentation I have given some background information on the system of institutes of technology, but I shall also focus on Letterkenny's position within it. Letterkenny Institute of Technology is typical of the other colleges. It is one of the smaller examples, but its structure and trends are similar to the others around the country.
2704.
The map shows the 13institutes of technology operating in the Republic of Ireland. Though it has only been established for the past year and a half, the name of Tipperary Rural Business and Development Institute (TRBDI) was recently changed to Tipperary Institute. It has not yet joined our system, but it is an important development.
2705.
The second slide gives an indication of the growth of the sector over the years. It is important to remember that it was only established at the beginning of the 1970s, and many colleges are celebrating their 30thanniversary this year. From the slide you can seethat in 1975-76 there were over 3,000 full-time studentsin the colleges, and by 1999-2000 that had grown to46,000. The major changes started to occur around 1987. That can be related to the Republic of Ireland's economic history, for one could say class sizes increasedby 100% around that time. The increase also tied in with the Programme for National Recovery in 1987 and agreements since then.
2706.
The changes in college enrolments and the fortunes of the Irish economy have therefore been tightly entwinedsince 1987. Right through the 1990s until the present, there have been massive increases in enrolments. We are trying to help the college infrastructure keep pace.
2707.
The third slide shows the types of programmes Letterkenny Institute of Technology offers. Courses are provided in the areas of science, engineering and business. Science includes computing, while business includes languages, accountancy, marketing and so on.They are broad areas, but the three generic headings are business, engineering and science; that is where it started.
2708.
The basic National Certificate qualification can be achieved in a two-year programme. If students have obtained a 55% average across their subjects at the end of those two years, they may return to do a diploma year. On completion of a diploma they can return to do a degree. The beauty of the ladder system is that, if students decide to leave after twoyears to work, they have the option of returning to complete the diploma at a later stage. If they do not attain the 55% average at the end of yeartwo and gain work experience, they can return afterwards to complete a diploma.
2709.
In other words, the work experience makes up for the deficit in academic achievement and gives them the chance to return. Our experience of students who have been out for a while has been that their maturity has improved remarkably, and they know exactly what they can and cannot achieve with their qualifications. Students who return after some time tend to take thingsmore seriously than previously, and that is very important.
2710.
As your documents will show, the annual growthin gross domestic product (GDP) in the Republic ofIreland from 1990-98 was around 6%. That is also shownin comparison with that of other countries. There has been huge development in the Irish economy over the period. If you look at the employment graph, you will see the jumps from 1994-2000. Employment is at its highest ever in the Republic of Ireland, with up to 1·7 million people currently employed.
2711.
We are struggling at the moment to maintain skills in certain areas. Pressure is being put on the colleges to supply graduates who can remedy the skill shortage. We are doing our best to balance a number ofissues in a situation of declining entrance demographics.Before this we have had non-stop growth and success. The environment is changing slightly for the future, and I shall expand on that as I continue.
2712.
Certain trends are obvious in entrance levels to full-time higher education. As you can see, there has been growth in entry from all sectors, ranging from higher professional down to unskilled manual between 1992 and 1998, and that is continuing. We are movingtowards a situation of mass third-level education of whichanyone who wishes can avail. We must decide whether it is the right thing for everyone. Some people may find themselves on courses to which they are unsuited, and they might have been better taking some other option. It might take them the first or second year to realise that and look elsewhere.
2713.
We are coming to terms with that issue too. While some might see it as desirable for everyone to move into third-level education, that might not be the best solution for all. We must keep that in mind when analysing the retention of students and completion of courses.
2714.
As our document shows, the profile of the working population has changed. The majority of people inthe65+ or 60-64 age group have had only primary education; now nearly 30% receive third-level education,and that will continue to increase. For example, the majority of modern students now have Leaving Certificate and third-level qualifications, but that was not previously the case; the profile is changing.
2715.
The major problem facing us, particularly in institutes of technology, is the decline in school leavers.This is because our students have traditionally been taken directly from school into colleges. As illustrated, there is expected to be a drop of around 25% in the 15-year period from 1998-2012. That is a big drop-off in our current market. There are now 13 colleges, with a broad range of courses in each. This will force us into a competitive position vis-à-vis each other as well as the universities.
2716.
We shall all have to grapple with the situation. The major issues facing us are the skill needs of the economy, the decline in school leavers, technology-based qualifications, and adult learners; our document lists them for you.
2717.
Like our college in Letterkenny, its sister instituteswere initially regional technical colleges set up around the country. In January 1998 they were all renamed institutes of technology. We work on an open national applications system. If you look at the statistics in front of you, you will find it is obvious that we are taking the majority of our students from our own region. That is a trend in each of the colleges at the moment. They started as regional colleges, then moved to a nationalapplication system and became institutes of technology.Now they are once again catering primarily for the people in their own regions.
2718.
The intake of students from County Donegal toLetterkenny Institute of Technology has risen from about50% four years ago to around 75% now. The remainderof the students can come from anywhere in Ireland. We take people from Monaghan because of the good bus route; many students come from Dublin because they have relations in Donegal, and the remainder tends to come from the surrounding counties of Sligo, Leitrim and Mayo. We are happy that 76% of the student intake choose Letterkenny Institute of Technology as their first preference, and 75% of the intake is from County Donegal; our local region is supporting us.
2719.
You were interested in where people get jobs andwhere they end up. The ladder of opportunity shows that students are moving from certificate to diploma todegree. On average, 50% return to do a diploma or degree, so they are taking further study. It might not be withLetterkenny Institute of Technology; the students may goto another college or university, but on average 50% arereturning to education after taking a certificate or diploma.
2720.
A survey undertaken in November on students who left the college in May and June showed that on average 30% to 35% had found employment. There is a huge trend in the Republic of Ireland for taking a year out - around 40,000 Irish students are currently in Australia. Therefore if you are looking for a majorsource of graduates at the moment, they are in Australia.The number taking a year out has remained at about 5% to 6%. The number of graduates looking for work is about the same as the national average unemployment rate, so we are not too concerned about it.
2721.
The interesting thing from our point of view is that, when we looked at where graduates were finding jobs, we found that about 40% do so in Donegal, something that was not previously the case. All along our argument was that, if the opportunities existed in the county, graduates would stay to work there, but the necessary level of employment was not there to retain them. The east coast is still drawing a large percentage of our graduates, and it has taken a big jump this year from 26% to 43%. That indicates the profile of the country, and the Government's strategy at the moment is to try to regenerate the regions. Letterkenny Institute of Technology is working closely with the Industrial Development Agency (IDA) to get industry to locate in the north-west, particularly to give our graduates an opportunity.
2722.
We have listed the services to industry. JackO'Herlihy is the head of development in the LetterkennyInstitute of Technology and deals specifically with the college's business development centre.
2723.
The last couple of slides point out the dispersal of graduate employment throughout the country, particularly for primary and higher degree holders. It mirrors the Letterkenny graduates statistics; over 60% of graduates are employed on the east coast in Dublin, Kildare, Meath and Wicklow. The index at the end shows that those counties are employing 1·6 times thenumber of graduates they produce. In the border counties of Donegal, Sligo, Leitrim, Louth, Cavan and Monaghan,it works out at about one third. Therefore, regardless of whether people from the border counties graduate from Letterkenny or from Dublin or Galway, the Donegal region can only sustain about one third of the graduates it produces. Our argument is that, if the opportunities for employment in the region are improved, more people could be attracted back, and that has recently been borne out by some new companies setting up there.
2724.
It is a similar story for certificate and diploma holders; the east coast is dominant. That is why there is a three-region set-up in the Republic at the moment. Region one is the east coast; region two consists of thecities of Galway, Limerick and Cork - three universitycities with larger graduate employment. Region threeincludes the midlands, the north-west and the south-east, which do not retain their fair share of graduates in relation to the numbers they produce.
2725.
Mr O'Herlihy:The institutions have a dual mandate. They are intended to be academic centres ofexcellence. As such, they are supposed to be meeting the needs of the economy. They are therefore mandatedto produce middle- and higher-level technicians. In addition to being academic centres of excellence, theyare designed to be agents for the economic developmentof the regions they serve. That is my job description ashead of development - in other words, I am the managerresponsible for linking the institutions to the economy.
2726.
While it is easy to say, it is hard to do. Without belittling other academics or myself, they tend to believe there is a right answer that they know and will provide for you. As you are aware, that will not work with industry, for it is not like that. There is an important educational retraining process to re-equip us to work with industry. We work with it by providingservices in the marketplace like any other consultant, except that we do not do so for profit. We do some training and some consultant advisory services and research work.
2727.
I shall give some simple examples of the type of research we carry out; it could hardly be termed rocket science. There is an engineering company in the town that makes fish-farming cages. The value of the fish in those cages can be up to £2 million. They walk along a light walkway system, and the cages can be up to one or two miles off the coast. People were falling off the little walkways, and they asked us to design a more flexible, stronger walkway so that the cages would not be damaged. It is a practical problem to solve.
2728.
Another simple example concerns a companyproducing an almanac for Ireland each year. Its memberscame to us and said, "Next year we do not want a bookbut a CD and web site". You take one form of publicationand put the material into another.
2729.
Those are the types of research projects we do. In the area of consultancy, we have been working very closely for the last four years with the University of Ulster in the north-west region on the management ofchange for micro-enterprises with innovation and change.We sourced a good group from the University of Brighton who had developed a method of working with small businesses. We then attracted funding and were trained to use that method in our region. You are therefore continually trying to act as a gateway to yourregion for best practice from wherever you can source it.
2730.
The other important aspect of the development function is that we work closely with the three major development agencies in our region. They are the IDA, which tries to attract inward investment from outside of the country, Enterprise Ireland, which looks after indigenous industry, and Údarás na Gaeltachta, which looks after the Irish-speaking part of Donegal - up to 30% of people in Donegal speak Irish.
2731.
While we work with those three agencies in trying to help create new jobs, we have a business development centre on the campus. If we provide the ambience for people to invest in our town and give them the facilities to do so and start up new projects, they are more likely to come. We therefore work very closely with those agencies.
2732.
Broadly speaking, those are the things we do in working with the region. The important thing is that the experience is then fed back into courses for the professional development of your staff. We pay extra to do that; if I have a lecturer in marketing who works for a day with a company in the programme we are doing, that person gets paid extra for his work. It is a very crude market reality. If you pay people, they are more interested, and the benefit to the institute is that staff bring back the experience to make the marketing course more real.
2733.
The Deputy Chairperson:Thank you very muchfor describing the Letterkenny experience. Members will have been thinking about your presentation, and there will certainly be some questions to ask. I remind the members that I was speaking to Mr Hannigan before the meeting; he agreed to share what they had learned from the weaknesses that they had come across in their system. It is not just a question of jewels in thecrown. He kindly agreed to share with us the limitationsthat they had established and how they had sought to overcome them.
2734.
Mr Dallat:As a former teacher with the County Donegal Vocational Education Committee, albeit not in Letterkenny but Carndonagh, I am more than happy to see people from the area. You placed great emphasis on the need to match skills with industry. While it may not be your direct responsibility, I should like to hear your views on what may happen in the future as the population declines. The bottom 20% of the population in Northern Ireland has serious literacy and numeracy problems. How do you address the needs of those people in a way that will cater for the needs of industry, which only recently realised they are valuable and intelligent human beings who may only be in their forties? In the Republic the school leaving age only went up from 14 years of age in the mid seventies. Are those people included in your planning?
2735.
Mr Hannigan:Demographics were considered across the whole sector. What you said about matching the skill needs to the economy is correct. Each collegehas employed an access officer, funded by the Departmentof Education and Science, to make it possible for those people to return to mainstream education or to match training programmes to them.
2736.
There are two real parts to the job. One is to look at the retention of existing students, and the other is to look for what are termed "non-standard applicants"- people who have not traditionally been involved in education. Our access officer was appointed recently, but because of the recent problems with Fruit of the Loom, Donegal is probably one of the most analysed counties in the country. The Donegal Employment Initiative Taskforce originated from the Fruit of the Loom job losses to try to deal with the problems of the people made redundant. Deciding how to deal with thatis a consortium approach between other training agenciessuch as Foras Áiseanna Saothair (FÁS) and ourselves. The access officer's role is to break down any invisible barriers, getting people back onto programmes and tailoring programmes to their needs. That is what we are working towards at the moment.
2737.
We found that, while the institute might have a certain approach to try and attract people, they came across other major obstacles. When dealing with the people from Fruit of the Loom, we found that it wasnot the case that they did not want to join a programme.They were concerned about the childcare situation, what transport problems were involved and whether they would lose their social welfare benefits if they joined the programme before a certain date. All those obstacles were there, and it became apparent when they came to look at the options that, while there was no obstacle to getting on a programme, there were obstacles between stepping from one to the other. The access officer's job is to identify the obstacles and either eradicate or find a way round them, making it easier for people to come back to education. That is where many of the issues are currently arising, and they must be sorted out.
2738.
It is important to identify problems and make itas easy as possible to get people back onto programmesor into mainstream education. I did not mention it in the presentation, but new 18-month skill-shortage programmes have been run nationally over the last three years. People spend six months in college, six months on work experience and then a further six months in college. The programmes are aimed at bringing people back to education and training them to be industry-ready technicians.
2739.
In our experience, the majority of people who have taken part in the programme have been in their mid twenties and early thirties. They have had other experiences but are now deciding that they want tochange and do something different. The experience of thecollege has been positive, for those who are returning to education have found themselves displaced fromother jobs. They are finding that, once back in education,they are not happy simply to have done the 18 months; they want to go further, and they have recognised thatthey can. In direct answer to your question, the problemis first to get rid of the barriers that stop people getting as far as your front door and then make it as simple as you can to facilitate them when they are in college.
2740.
Mr Byrne:I should like to thank Mr Hannigan and Mr O'Herlihy for their presentation. We obviously also have colleges of further education, but what is the unique difference in institutes of technology that helps promote local economic development? What sort of formal relationships does an institute of technologyhave with local industry and such authorities as the CountyCouncil?
2741.
My second point concerns the type of course. Iknow you have science, engineering and business. Whodetermines the content of those courses? Is it the instituteof technology itself or are there national standards?
2742.
Mr O'Herlihy:I shall break it down into the further-education colleges and us. I have been working in Letterkenny Institute of Technology for 27 of the 30years it has been there. Our biggest difficulty in the beginning was establishing credibility. That was not successfully established until we were a degree-awarding institution. Thereafter, when people came inon the first day, they knew that, if they applied themselves, they could finish with a degree as good as that which they could get anywhere else. It did not matter to them if it took them a year or 18months longer than thebrighter ones who went straight to university on dayone, for they got where they wanted, and that was fairly important. I suggest that if you are not a full third-level institution you do not enjoy credibility.
2743.
The second point is about the links. For example,we have a business advisory council drawn from a cross-section of the business community in our region. If we wish to undertake an initiative, whether it is a formal course or a review of an existing option, we use it as a sounding board to advise us. We work with the formal structure of advisory groups. Additionally, weare very actively involved in such groups as the Chamberof Commerce and Industry and the Irish Business and Employers' Confederation (IBEC), and we use existing networks to ensure we are attuned to what they say. The local authority - in our case Donegal County Council - is represented on our governing body, and we are involved in their advisory group. We meet on a regular basis to review both its agenda and our own.
2744.
Mr Hannigan:Currently the accreditation is from the National Council for Educational Awards (NCEA). The college itself develops programmes andmight identify a particular niche it wishes to investigate. For example, we have recently had a new degree approved in fire technology, which we identified as being a niche area not covered by anyone else. There are opportunities in it, and we have had it approved bythe NCEA. The proposal is brought through the Institute'sacademic council and forwarded to the NCEA. It will send down a validating body - a representative group of academics and industry figures - to go through the course with staff and make a decision on whether they should accept it, reject it, or send us back to do some more work. That is the general approval process.
2745.
We are going through a major change, and I must say that there is much uncertainty at the moment. The NCEA is about to be superseded by the Higher Education and Training Awards Council - the new council coming in under the National Qualifications Authority. The basis of the change is to focus on the learner. For example, if you were to start a course with us, there should be no obstacle to your progressing from Letterkenny Institute of Technology to University College, Dublin, or any other college to complete the qualification you want. We are therefore looking at a whole new process of how people can move from one course to another with recognition of each other's qualifications, placing it all under the National Qualifications Authority.
2746.
There is a degree of uncertainty. There is also the possibility that colleges can validate their own certificates and diplomas, and that process is ongoing. We are now entering a period of major change. Thereis a fair degree of uncertainty about how things will workout. However, it is likely that the Higher Education Training and Awards Council will come into play in September or October2001. There will also be a FurtherEducation Training and Awards Council. Both councilswill come under the National Qualifications Authority. That will be a change in the current structures.
2747.
The NCEA system has served us well in thedevelopment of programmes, from certificate to diplomathrough to degree. It has also been successful in maintaining quality standards.
2748.
Mr Byrne:Mr O'Herlihy said regional technicalcolleges had found it necessary to move into the higher education field to improve their image and establishcredibility. How do you cater for the weaker student who may want practical rather than academic training? For someone who has just finished his Leaving Certificate,what sort of entry qualification is needed for the two-yearcertificate course?
2749.
Mr O'Herlihy:When I talk about being a degree-awarding institution, people vote with their feet. If you do not provide what students want, they will go elsewhere. They want the opportunity to go as far as they can. That does not mean that everyone is capable of attaining degree level, but it means that you have an integrated system that ends on that level.
2750.
We deliberately set a very minimalist entry qualification at Leaving Certificate, which would lie between O Levels and A Levels. You must pass your Leaving Certificate, and you must pass English and Maths, but you need not be a very high performer. We closely track the relationship between the results in our institutions and the number of points that people bringon entry. While there is some relationship between pointson entry and performance, there is a very close relationshipbetween attendance, participation and performance.
2751.
We have not been successful in addressing literacy and numeracy problems. As an economy, we had roughly one million people under the age of five or over 65, one million people in full-time education and one million at work. We could barely afford full-timeeducation, so we did not address lifelong-learning issues;we are only beginning to address them now. The big challenge is that you must get outside the institution. The key to adult learning is not about delivering a course; it is that the person learns where, when and how they want to learn. We do not give them a package; we give them a mechanism to step onto the process and use it for themselves.
2752.
Ms McWilliams:With regard to forward planning,you said that numbers of school leavers are decreasing and that you may be entering into competition with other colleges. Do you meet them regularly? Do you have some future agreement for which colleges will run which courses? In other words, the students will move; the courses will move, and you may develop specialisms in regional colleges. That is an issue for us in Northern Ireland.
2753.
Secondly, you have had some experience of internal investment. Will you adapt your courses to suit those investors if they can guarantee that they will invest in your area? In other words, how flexible are you in adapting to their ever-changing needs?
2754.
Thirdly, I was an external examiner for the University of Limerick, which was also attached to a college. The college was developing many degree programmes, but it did not have external examiners. Is that the case in Letterkenny Institute of Technology? Have you gone down the higher-education route? Have you any way of evaluating the equivalency between your institute's degree and that of the university?
2755.
Mr Hannigan:The council of directors consistsof the chief executives of the 13 institutes of technology. It meets monthly, and the heads of development,registrars and secretaries/financial controllers also meet regularly within that structure. There is therefore a great deal of co-operation and meetings between colleges, and many policy responses come from the colleges as a group. Our secretary general operates in Tralee. He is the former head of a school of business studies seconded tothe post, and he operates as a link for each of the colleges.
2756.
If there is a parliamentary question, if any reportsare required or necessary for a response, or if a proactiveresponse on Government policy is required, the institutesof technology put forward their views as a group ratherthan as individuals. It is important that we maintain that.
2757.
Over the years, each college has offered similar programmes, but each has developed its own niche. Letterkenny, for instance, has invested heavily in information technology, and that runs across all the programmes that we operate. We have invested in machinery and networks to try to give students the best possible exposure to IT.
2758.
Other colleges may have strengths in engineering.Letterkenny also has engineering courses, but some people may have more respect for another college's engineering programme. However, I cannot see the colleges saying, "You take this, and I'll take that." I do not believe that will happen. Colleges will retain what they have as best they can.
2759.
However, if difficulties arise, there are a numberof other ongoing co-operative ventures. For instance, in the border/midlands/west region there is a regionalhighereducation network that includes the six institutes of technology and the National University of Ireland,Galway. We are working on projects that might pull thestrengths of each college together to deal with specific problems.
2760.
Your second question referred to the investmentand adoption of our courses. There was very little inwardinvestment into Donegal for 20 years, but over the past two or three years there have been two major investors in Letterkenny - Pacificare and Prumerica, which are two multinationals based in the United States. LetterkennyInstitute of Technology has developed an internship programme with Prumerica. It will take our computer degree students for eight to 10 hours a week, training them in certain areas and allowing them to completetheir degree programme with us. In that way, Prumericacan give feedback as to whether our students are meeting the demands of the marketplace.
2761.
That works across a number of companies, particularly in the NCEA, where there are industry participants and panels coming to say whether aprogramme fits or not. Letterkenny Institute of Technologyis adaptable in that respect. The institute will also put short training programmes in place for the companies and suggest others we believe they might need.
2762.
There are external examiners through the NCEA for every subject, meaning there is a vast array of external examiners in all subject areas. Many of them come from the institutes of technology or universities sector or are international external examiners. There is very stringent quality assurance in that respect.
2763.
Mr O'Herlihy:The point about changing needs is very valid. When one of the American companies was thinking of investing, it came, got our syllabi, metour students, examined their work, and made suggestions about one or two modules that should be introduced onto the course as options. Those suggestionswere all acted on. We had a formal co-operative agreement with them when they opened in Letterkenny. It is a very proactive type of model, and you must keep doing that, for your syllabus is never correct; it may be correct today, but next year it will have to be changed.
2764.
One company was in the final stages of deciding whether to invest in the region and felt that our students should know a particular software package. We sent one of our lecturers to New York for a week to learn to use and introduce it. The firm was quitesurprised that we went to that trouble, and it was sufficiently impressed that it agreed to pay for the venture. That is an example of the reality of the situation.The whole objective is to turn out people with the skills industry requires.
2765.
Mrs Nelis:Thank you for an excellent presentation. I have a number of questions. Perhaps I might first ask you about your budgetary needs and the constraints under which you must operate? How do you attract additional funds for what you describe as a "very expansionist programme"? Moreover, does the 50% figure for those returning to education relate toIreland as a whole or simply to your successful enterprise?
2766.
Mr Hannigan:No, that is the trend right across the board. Second years are returning to third year, and third years are returning to fourth. Fifty percent is the sort of trend you are looking at.
2767.
Mrs Nelis:I want to ask about student finance arrangements, for we have difficulties with them. You have abolished tuition fees and introduced third-level allowances, which we should term maintenance grants. How is that working? How do you arrange excessallowances for students from less well-off backgrounds?Third-level allowances and the abolition of tuition fees must help tremendously. Do you have a catchment area in the north-west, for instance? Would students from Derry attend Letterkenny Institute of Technology?
2768.
Letterkenny's development is quite astonishing. I am old enough to remember it as a few streets. It is a huge town and will soon be looking for city status.
2769.
Mr Hannigan:I shall return to the issue offinancing. That comes from the Department of Educationand Science, and we have had an investment of around £15 million over the last 6 years for buildings, mainly capital development. We have built a new library, nine new computer labs, new lecture theatres, a restaurant and a new business development centre, with some money also coming from INTERREG. Moreover, we have two new buildings beginning this summer - a new design block specifically for graphic design students and a multipurpose sports centre. We do not currently have an example of the latter, and that is a major weakness in our infrastructure. The studentshave part-funded an attached building for student services from capitation. However, the majority of our funding comes from the Department of Education and Science.
2770.
The abolition of fees has provided opportunities for many students, but we never had a fee structure inthe first place. Students entering institutes of technologyused to get a grant based on their attendance; they now receive a maintenance grant based on their means. As a result, things have changed slightly. Students had to attend every class in order to get payment back at the start of the 1990s, so attendance records are probably not as good as they were back then.
2771.
That may have changed how students think about things. However, what is interesting about the reintroduction of fees in Northern Ireland is that twoyears ago, when they were brought back, 38% of Southernstudents attending university in Northern Ireland werefrom County Donegal. Therefore a huge influx of people from County Donegal into Northern universitiesis still taking place regardless.
2772.
Mr O'Herlihy:We are very well financed andresourced. Education is very expensive, and the Government pays all costs for our full-time courses. However, the development function must pay for itself - any training or work that we do pays for itself. Mainstream education is well funded and resourced on an ongoing basis, and that is one of the keys to the success of the sector. If you compare our system with others in Europe, you will see the Government got a huge return on its investment.
2773.
Mrs Carson:We have found, from presentationsfrom other institutes and firms, that there is a problemwith careers guidance. You offer many courses, and many students go through your institute. Are you happywith the standard of careers guidance you provide? How do youorganise guidance in Letterkenny Institute of Technology?
2774.
Mr Hannigan:We have had a formal careers officer for the past threeyears. The post has been on a contract basis since January 1998 and is paid for by student capitation. However, it will probably become a full-time post. In those threeyears we have developed a strong "milk round" - at the moment we have a verybroad spectrum of companies recruiting people throughthe college. Many students will start work before they leave college because of the employment situation in the South.
2775.
We do not really have a problem guiding studentsat the institute, for they have already chosen a course of action by that stage. However, they may have made a wrong decision before they reach us. For example, students might find themselves on an engineering or computing course completely different from what they had anticipated, and they might therefore struggle with the work.
2776.
Many people complain about the careers guidancesecondary schools offer, but resources are needed to provide proper guidance. We work closely with careers guidance officers in secondary schools to try to put people on the right path. Students might find they havechosen the wrong course when they arrive at LetterkennyInstitute of Technology, and we try to identify whetherthat is the case so we can advise them on the appropriateway.
2777.
The employment record of students over the past couple of years suggests that we are pointing people in the right direction and that they are finding employment fairly quickly. The change that occurred when the formal careers service came to the college was vitally important - it made a huge difference. We employed a careers-guidance specialist with a good track record. The work done in that area has been very useful.
2778.
Mrs Carson:There are many colleges around the country. Are the same courses on offer in each, or are you able to design your own?
2779.
Mr Hannigan:We design our own courses for our own colleges. For example, we offer a Bachelor of Science degree in Fire Technology. Another college may specialise in a different area of engineering. We might all begin with the same base, such as a National Certificate in Electronics or Civil Engineering, for example. However, when we move on to diploma and degree courses, colleges splinter off into different areas that cater for their own region or a field where the college has a particular strength.
2780.
Mr Beggs:It is refreshing to hear about thelinks you have established with businesses in your communities. I am sure we can learn something from that.
2781.
You have fewer colleges in a bigger region, and you have a larger population than we. What is the size range of your colleges, and does the size of the college have an impact on the structure of the courses that they can provide? You spoke about the importance of offering degree courses at colleges. How many degree courses does your college offer, and what percentage of your students takes study to degree level? Students are able to resit A-levels at our further education colleges. Do you offer resits for Leaving Certificates and, if not, what is your reasoning behind that?
2782.
Mr Hannigan:We have a full-time student population of 2,000, and we are one of the smaller colleges. The bigger colleges are Galway, Cork and Waterford. On average they have between 5,000 and 6,000 full-time students. Other colleges in the middle range have no more than 3,000 students.
2783.
Our first degree course was a Bachelor of Business Studies, which we introduced in 1996-97. We currently have nine programmes on offer. There are bachelor degrees in Business Studies and Legal Studies with Taxation, a BSc in Computer Science and an ab initio degree in Computer Networking. The BSc in Fire Technology is coming in this year. There are two science degrees, one in Food Technology and one inAnalytical Science. A full-time Nursing degree is comingon stream in 2002 - we currently have a part-time one - and there is a Bachelor of Design in Digital Media.
2784.
In percentage terms, a cap was to be put on the number of students that could study at degree level in the institutes of technology. We are nowhere near that. It has not been imposed; a percentage has not been set. On average, for example, we have 30 students on ourBachelor of Business Studies and 26 to 30 on our computing degree courses. On average you are bringing through between 20 and 30 students on each degree programme, depending on the numbers you start with.
2785.
I should have mentioned that science is havingmajor problems in attracting students into programmes inthe South at the moment. We have problems in gettingstudents to do science at secondary level and also to continue at third level. Everyone is going through a shakeout.
2786.
Your last question concerned repeats. We do notdo anything regarding repeating legal certificates. Studentsmay choose to do that in a secondary school, but not with us.
2787.
Mr Beggs:I have a supplementary question.Links are developing in Northern Ireland between further education colleges and the universities to enablethe first or second year of a course to be delivered locally. Is there much of that happening in the South?
2788.
Mr O'Herlihy:There is a very important choiceto be made. If students are fed into a university system,and receive their reward from it, your institution is going to be seen in a particular way. If you give them an award at a lower academic level, like a National Certificate after two years' study, which gives them exemptions in the university system - of which very many avail - you havethe credibility of providing an award at a certain level.
2789.
I shall give you an example of what happenswhen you go up to the third year at diploma level. Last year, two students who had studied with us for three yearstransferred to Queen's University, where they finished. They were exempt for the first two years of their mechanical engineering degree at Queen's and camefirst and second in their cohorts. Very good exemptionsare being negotiated between the IT sector and theuniversities, but we are awarding our own qualifications.I believe that to be a very important difference.
2790.
Mr Hannigan:The National QualificationsAuthority, which I mentioned earlier, has been establishedto streamline the movement of students between differentcourses. For example, if you had someone doing a two-year certificate course in Letterkenny and going to one university, they might not get any credit for it. At another university, the student might get two years' credit. They are trying to cut out such discrepancies, so that there is a standard way of transferring fromNational Certificate and National Diploma programmes.It is a matter of regulating the system so that there is no picking and choosing what you want from different programmes.
2791.
The Deputy Chairperson:Thank you. This evidence session has been valuable to our inquiry into education and training for industry. I was very much taken by Mr O'Herlihy's comments when he talked about the centre of excellence, the agent for economic development and the gateway of best practice in the region all being coupled with education. It is a quite exciting model, and we shall be examining it very closely. Can you elaborate on the weaknesses you stumbled across as you developed the programme? What pitfalls could be avoided?
2792.
Mr Hannigan:In third-level education we are coming up against the problem of getting students to complete their programmes. The number of students who are expected to have completed the programme after two or three years is currently a very hot politicalissue in the South. Reports have recently been completedin the university and IT sectors. They have shown thatin the university sector, which covers seven universities,about 75% to 80% complete their courses. In theinstitutes of technology the figure is around 60% to 63%.
2793.
The statistics do not show what happens to students who do not complete their courses. One report tracked down those students and found that they are not dropping out. They are switching to different courses or going into the workplace, making conscious decisions for their own benefit. While the completion of courses is a very serious matter, it is also a very intricate and wide-ranging issue. We must consider if it is right to place students in programmes that may not be suited to them. We must find out what happens to them afterwards.
2794.
Institutes of technology have been trying to establish credibility. It has been a battle to do that in the Republic of Ireland. In the past five years people have started to realise that colleges have contributed toeconomic development. People are paying more attentionto what they can do. Colleges battled through a situationin the late 1980s and early 1990s where they were taking in more students without the resources to back it up. Eventually resources started to come on stream to support that. It is a major pitfall if colleges are forced into positions where they are trying to adapt and bereadily available; to allow them to do that, the resourcesmust come on stream at the same time.
2795.
We have adequate resources now, but for a long time we were playing "catch up" trying to develop programmes and keep things going. The main strength of the system is that it has been adaptable to change. The Government have said that such programmes are needed to deal with certain skill shortages, and we have adapted accordingly, which is very positive.
2796.
The Deputy Chairperson:Your contribution has been most valuable and is very much appreciated. Thank you for your attendance and for the illustrative hard copy, which is very helpful.
2797.
Mr Hannigan:Thank you very much for the hospitality.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 10 May 2001
Members present:
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Mr Hay
Mr R Hutchinson
Ms McWilliams
Mrs Nelis
Witnesses:
Ms A McVicker, Director)
Ms J Poots, Chairperson) Women's Training
Ms B Gadd, Director) Enterprise and
Ms B Ruddy, Director) Childcare
Ms H Crickard, Board member)
2798.
The Deputy Chairperson:Good afternoon, youare very welcome. As you know, you are here to give evidence as part of our inquiry into education andtraining for industry. Will you make a short presentationbefore members ask their questions. We have around three-quarters of an hour.
2799.
Ms Poots:My name is Joy Poots, and I am the chairperson of the Women's Training, Enterprise andChildcare (WTEC). Previously, I have worked in women'scommunity development in Belfast, and with the Equality Commission statutory duty unit. I am now co-ordinator of a Sure Start project in south Belfast. Helen Crickard is also a member of the Women's TECboard. Helen is a qualified joiner, and a founder memberof the Workshops Collective for Arts and Crafts, which is based in Lawrence Street, Belfast. Briege Gadd,another member of the board, is a former chief probationofficer and a visiting professor at the University of Ulster at Jordanstown. Anne McVicker, director of the Women's TEC, is going to make a short presentation. We thank you for the opportunity to talk about our work and the future.
2800.
Ms McVicker:The Women's TEC is a uniqueand innovative organisation which promotes the inclusion ofwomen in non-traditional training skills and employment. We do this with the support of funding from charitable trusts, European funding and in particular, Peace I. We provide training in joinery, electronics, electrical engineering and information technology. Atpresent, we are seeking to establish the first women'strainingcentre in Northern Ireland, which would containtraining workshops, childcare provision and start-up enterprise and business units for women.
2801.
Throughout the UK, and by 2006, women will constitute 80% of the growth in the labour force. For the first time, the number of employed women is set toovertake that corresponding to men, yet the employmentof women is not equal across all industrial sectors.Women represented 7% of employees in the engineeringand technology occupations in 1994, which represents just a 1% rise since 1979. In construction, less than 10% of the workforce is female, and within the craft sector, less than 2% is female. By contrast, more than half of the female workforce is concentrated in the service industry. So why is this a problem?
2802.
The under-representation of women in science, engineering, construction and technology (SECT) is not a new concern. Studies have examined the reasons for, and the consequences of failing to tap in to the potential of women as a source of labour and expertise. The motivations for concern range from economics to equal opportunities.
2803.
One argument for change is that employers arelosing out in terms of project development and expertise, if they do not tap in to the full labour force potential. The focus that women can contribute to SECTis a major asset that is currently being ignored. Employers are also experiencing skills shortages, and they are having to recruit employees from all parts of the labour force rather than from one sector only.
2804.
Equal opportunities are also a problem for those who do not get equal access to employment, training and pay. Lots of potential talent is being wasted. That poor representation of women is mirrored in education and training. On a national scale, in 1997 and 1998, women represented 11% of part-time further education students of engineering and technology, and 15% of full-time degree-level students. Fewer than one in ten students in the construction discipline is female, yet one-third of female school leavers go on to university each year. Although the numbers have increased in the past ten years, particularly in the higher-education sector, women remain in the minority.
2805.
Although they are welcome, equal opportunities policies cannot address alone the problem of female under-representation in SECT. Many initiatives have been set up over the years to change that trend. It is essential that those initiatives are supported, developed and increased if women are to be given real choices of areas in which to work and train. Those initiatives must also ensure that women have the opportunity to take anequal role in influencing their environment, the resourcesthat we use and technological advances.
2806.
In England, Scotland and Wales there are examples of initiatives that have worked. One of these is SECT, which is mainstream and falls within the remit of the Department of Trade and Industry. Therehave been advances, and although they have been slow,they have started to redress the balance by increasingthe number of women who participate in non-traditionalskill training and employment.
2807.
What is the Women's TEC doing about this? The Construction Industry Training Board (CITB) is currently working in partnership with the Women's TEC to attract women into the construction industry,particularly where there are skills shortages, for example,in the wet trades of bricklaying, plastering, painting, decorating and tiling. Incidentally, only three per cent of the workforce in the construction industry is female. We are currently training a group of women in the North West Institute of Further and Higher Educationwho will progress to a construction course in September2001. We are also exploring partnerships with BrookfieldBusiness School in the Brookfield Mill complex and the Belfast Institute of Further and HigherEducation (BIFHE) to attract women into non-traditionalskills training and to support them through the traditionalrange of obstacles that stillprevent women from getting involved in non-traditionaltraining. Those obstacles are attitudes such as sexism. Lack of childcare is also an obstacle. We are currently piloting a project called"Girl Power" which will operate in the summer months.That is aimed at 15 to 16-year old girls, and offers them a range of non-traditional skills and taster courses to encourage them to change their career choice when they return to school in September.
2808.
What can the Committee do? It can ensure the mainstreaming of the gender dimension of economic development through consultation and by creating a gender balance in the membership of policy-making bodies. It can also ensure that full weight is given to the European requirement that national action plans for employment include special attention and special measures to promote gender equality in employment. The Committee can ensure that women benefit equally- in fact proportionately - from all training programmesand from the structural funds, and it can ensure that official statistics give a true picture of women's and men's different experiences of employment, non-employment and training.
2809.
Mr Beggs:My question may be slightly controversial. I understand that in the further educationsector there is a clear majority of females by comparisonto males. Why then does additional money have to be targeted at getting female students into the further-education sector?
2810.
Ms Poots:As Ms McVicker said, the focus is on what type of training course people are taking part in at the further education colleges. The proportion of females in science, engineering and construction isvery low; and that is probably outweighed by high levelsin areas such as child care, hairdressing, administration,et cetera. As a result of occupational segregation from school level onward, there are segregated industries in which the potential growth of the female labour force in emerging industries is untapped. It will be a loss to the economic development of Northern Irish society if we cannot tap that potential.
2811.
The main point, aside from the desire to create a more equal society, is that there are large wage differentials between those in industrial jobs and the service industries in which women work. In addition, the career opportunities in each are extremely different. That is why those wage differentials between women and men have not changed remarkably, even since the introduction of the Sex Discrimination Act 1975. Northern Ireland has a growing economy, particularly in regard to the technology industries. Given that thereis a lack of women entering into those types of employment, we fear that the wage differentials betweenmen and women could actually widen. That would be an extreme indictment on our society.
2812.
Mr Beggs:Do you acknowledge that the most important time to address the issue is at school level? Do you accept that career choices made at school would lead students into the further training and employment that create those opportunities? You say that although there are more females in the further and higher education sector, they are studying the wrong courses. That point could be turned round - it could be said that there should be special investment to encourage men to be nurses or hairdressers. Would you also advocate that?
2813.
Ms Poots:I am not saying that. There should be a balance. Figures relating to the input in training in the past reveal that it is costly to train people for the occupations that we are focusing on, especially the higher levels of information technology. In the 20 or 30 years after their establishment, Northern Ireland's Government training centres had 99% male occupancy. We are asking for some redress now, because that constituted a very long period of unequal funding for men's training.
2814.
The Women's TEC works in areas of disadvantage.We target women who are unemployed, in low-paidjobs or in a poverty trap. In our experience, unemployedmen in disadvantaged areas can often go out, get a trade and make something of themselves; women have not had the same opportunities and we would like to see a change in that.
2815.
Mr Beggs:Briefly, can you explain the advantagesof having a separate organisation, rather than carrying out the training in a further education college?
2816.
Ms Poots:The Women's TEC ran a women- only course in conjunction with a college, and that was funded by the European NOW (New Opportunities forWomen) programme. While it was reasonably successful,there were many obstacles. We are not saying that training within colleges cannot work and we are quite prepared to use the Women's TEC as a broker to getcourses set up, work in partnership with colleges, trainingcentres and any other institution that is prepared to focus on women's training in these fields. That is one of the ways in which we envisage the Women's TEC progressing. We plan to develop partnerships with existing resources, thereby maximising their use.
2817.
The Deputy Chairperson:Ms McVicker saidthat you want to set up the first women's training centre. This would segregate females from trainees in the centres that already exist however you will be proposingthatwomen have equal opportunities to the male workforce.In the real world, men and women have got to work together, so why can they not train together?
2818.
Ms Poots:The bottom line is that this has notworked. In the past, the Training and Employment Agency had a number of initiatives to try and mainstreamwomen into existing provision. It has admitted to us that the schemes were not as successful as they would have liked.
2819.
We must start somewhere, and one of my colleagues will perhaps talk about the range of barriers. We understand that when someone is training they should not be isolated, therefore we place them inindustry. Some industries understand our needs and they have been very receptive to us. Many are Americanor from other countries where strong equal opportunities policies are in place. We put women into placementswhere they are supported. Women's TEC will, hopefully,continue to carry out some of the training in its training centre, but we would like to develop partnerships across Northern Ireland, because we can not simply remain Belfast-based. People will be trained in a mixedenvironment, but they will be supported by an organisationthat appreciates their needs. They will not be left to make their own way.
2820.
Ms Gadd:Ultimately, we would like to doourselves out of a job, having become no longer necessary.In the beginning, there is a need for facilities for women only to develop a culture in which new role models are created, and where women feel comfortable enough with their social skills as well as with their trade, to be able to enter a male domain. For example, in a factory where the majority of the staff is male, the women's toilet is usually two and a half miles from where they are working. At present young women and school-leavers do not regard the non-traditional occupations as their first, second or even third choice. We feel that if we are successful, we will not be needed as a women-only facility in the future.
2821.
The Deputy Chairperson:It is a confidence- buildingmeasure.
2822.
Mrs Carson:You are starting at the top. We should be starting at the bottom, in primary schools,and changing attitudes throughout the educational system.
2823.
Your previous research revealed that women need part-time morning and evening courses. Do you think that our present educational system is flexible enough to meet the needs of women who want to return to work?
2824.
Ms Poots:No. There are many initiatives such asNew Deal, but there are lots of obstacles to implementingthose. Many of the trades are ring-fenced; certain criteria must be fulfilled before a qualification can be obtained in that trade.
2825.
Some of the organisations that control training in these fields have not offered enough flexibility through part-time training courses that run over an extended period. The family-friendly policy has not yet reached the training world. Years ago, you could do part-time training, but under the Jobskills programme, training could only be done on a full-time basis. Now we have the New Deal, and the Women's TEC does not find itself able to use that programme as a source for its trainees.
2826.
Mrs Carson:I know that Moy Park, for example,has scheduled some of its work shifts to accommodate females who wish to return to employment. Are firms in other urban areas not doing the same? Are you not happy with what is being done within the industry?
2827.
Ms McVicker:I have had meetings with Shorts-Bombardier, and our courses include a visit to one of its sites at either Dunmurry or Mallusk. Shorts-Bombardier has told us that they would like to employ about 100 women at one time to ensure that the majority of them stay on, but at present they are either unable or unwilling to adopt any family-friendly policies.
2828.
They recognise the difficulties for women travelling to their factories because of where they are located, but they are not prepared to do anything about that. They appreciate that women are the carers, and that some have to collect their kids from school, but they are not prepared to change the working schedules.
2829.
They want to meet their objectives and come onboard by implementing equality impact assessments, but they are not prepared to make any changes to overcome the obstacles which are preventing women from getting back into employment.
2830.
Mrs Nelis:What you are doing is great, and I congratulate you. I can understand why you want to set up a training centre for women.
2831.
The key need is choice. Can you imagine the benefits of going into a Training and Employmentoffice as a school leaver and being given the opportunity to expand your range of skills beyond those that are usually offered to women, such as hairdressing and nursing. There should be a place where women can train to be an engineer or a bricklayer, or any such skills, giving them the confidence needed to enter those fields. The system that you and I know is still organised on the basis of traditional structures. You are challenging that, but you are creating choice, and that is important.
2832.
There is a skills shortage, and there will not be enough skilled males to fill the shortages therefore women need to be trained.
2833.
Self-sufficiency is important to our dignity, and women who choose to live on their own need to acquire a good deal of skills. The North West Institute has a joinery course as part of which around 19 womenmade a coffee table. Such accomplishments give peoplegreat confidence. We cannot all depend on our partners or husbands to carry out home repairs. I am honoured and pleased that you are contributing to our inquiry.
2834.
How supportive is the social security system? This training is innovative and creative, therefore what barriers could the Social Security Agency unlock?How do you overcome those obstacles within that system?
2835.
Ms Poots:I am sure that this Committee has faced the same problem before. It is a big issue for women in the context of New Deal. The roles of social security and training agencies have overlapped. This takes place at a higher level.
2836.
I know that there are difficulties in changing the legislation to allow people to train for longer hours. Our main clientele are women on income support, not Jobseekers Allowance, so this creates another series of obstacles for us. The rules for those on income support, and who wish to train, are different from those which apply to people on Jobseekers Allowance. We tend tobe restricted by those rules no matter which way we go.
2837.
If we are to train Northern Ireland's unemployed population to meet the demands of the economy, we will need to create flexibility within the social security system to allow people to dip their feet in the water, and that is what we are doing in regard to unemployed women. We are telling women to use their potential, start a course, but without making a full commitment immediately. At the minute there is not enough flexibility. People can either give up their benefits and train or continue to receive state support.
2838.
Mrs Nelis:There is a New Deal programme for women.
2839.
Ms Poots:I have been working for a long time in community development in areas of high unemployment in Belfast, but I do not know any women who have taken part in New Deal training.
2840.
Ms McVicker:If women aged over 25 want todo an NVQ Level 2 in electronic engineering, for example,they would only be eligible to remain within the NewDeal programme for six months, even though it takes longer than that to complete such a course. New Deal would not, therefore, be appropriate for that type training.
2841.
Ms McWilliams:I have visited the project so Iknow something about it. It is good to see that some ofyour trainees have already graduated from the programme,and we would be interested to hear about what they are doing now. Would it be possible to get a submission and case studies relating to some of the problems concerning New Deal, so that we could include those in our inquiry?
2842.
The Deputy Chairperson:That would be useful.
2843.
Ms McWilliams:Where do you go from here? You have a track record, you are up and running, some of you are - I assume - in a voluntary committee, but some of you are working inside the Women's TEC project. What type of support would you need to enable you to sustain what you have already achieved? Are you in danger of not being able to continue? The Training and Employment Agency (T&EA) would be one of your support mechanisms, and you have mentioned Europe and the structural funds. This inquiry is looking to the future, and we would like to know what proposals you have. Are you unique or are you running parallel with any other organisation? I assume that you are not duplicating your activities. Have you had any negative responses from the colleges, or are they supportive of what you are doing? Where did your need come from and will the colleges support you in the future. We are all concerned about the availability of European funding. Ms Poots mentioned in her introduction the issue of mainstreaming. Could you elaborate on this?
2844.
Ms Poots:At present our main support is through National Lottery funds, even though that body is not supposed to be interested in vocational training. We received small amounts of money through the Peace programme, and that is almost spent. So far, we have received £60,000 from the T&EA to train 10 women in systems management, and that is our only source of funding. None of that funding is mainstreamed. We are in a gap period, and we will have run out of National Lottery funding by the end of the year. We need to be building relationships and making plans for the future with industry and colleges, but it is difficult to look to the future because funds are limited.
2845.
We would like to develop real working partnerships,because the Women's TEC cannot crack this nut of operational segregation, opportunity and choice by itself, but that has not been forthcoming. There is a serious problem and there are opportunities for the issues to be addressed jointly. There are many programmes, including the new Peace programme andthe transitional funds, that are applicable to the work of the Women's TEC. There is a lot of emphasis on informationtechnology, economy, business start-up and the social economy. The Women's TEC is interestedin becoming involved in all those areas, but before we can think strategically there will need to be a willingness and a commitment from the Department to work with us andcome up with projects that will match the needs of women.
2846.
We have found it very difficult to get statisticalinformation from any Government Department, because agood deal of it is not kept, and even if it is, we simply cannot reach it. We need to know, for example, exactlywhat areas we should be focusing courses on - where industry is emerging and where the gaps are. We need towork in partnership, and that is what we have come to say to the Committee today. It is not simply a questionof money; it is a matter of working in collaboration. Ourgroup has been together for seven years and we could haveadvanced much further if there had been collaboration.
2847.
Ms McVicker:To our knowledge there is no organisation like ours in Northern Ireland. The Craigavon-based organisation, Women into Trades andNon Traditional Occupations (WITANTO), was fundedby the Department of Education, but it has folded because of a lack of funding. It focused on schools andcareers departments, through which it tried to encourageyoung girls to make career choices at an early age. There is a belief that once girls reach the age of 14 it is too late to get them involved with non-traditional skills training.
2848.
We do not have our own training centre so we avail of the traditional training centres such as those atSpringvale Training Ltd, BIFHE and IMPACT training.
2849.
The obstacles still exist. Women are still not getting involved in training, despite the introduction ofequality legislation. That is because there is no childcareprovision in those colleges. Therefore, although we provide training in the centres we have to run our own crèches. The purpose of actually having our own centrewould be so that we could provide training and childcareprovision too.
2850.
Nobody else is doing what we do so we are not duplicating the work of anybody else. The work thatwe do, through the initiatives and projects that we undertake, does actually work in Scotland and England.Schemes there are funded through local authorities and European funding and so on, and they have made an impact. There are organisations such as Women in Science, Engineering and Technology (SET), Let's Train Women in Science and Technology (Let's Twist)and co-operative solutions, all of which we can learn from.
2851.
Ms Poots:There is a network organisation in England called London Women and Manual Trades. We tried to become members and get information from them, however, the situation in Northern Ireland is very different and there needs to be an organisation in Northern Ireland that reflects our specific needs. For example, local authorities fund a lot of those projects. Local authorities here are not going to be able to provide funding - at least not to the same level. There should be an organisation through which people from any part of Northern Ireland - whether they come fromStrabane or Enniskillen - can seek advice. That is one of the things that we hope to achieve with our organisation.
2852.
Mr Byrne:I welcome you, and I understandwhat you are saying. In the past, very few females would drive a bus or a lorry. Thankfully, that is beginning tochange. I still have not seen a lady driving, for example,a forklift truck.
2853.
I want to ask Ms Crickard what barriers, if any, she has experienced in her attempt to enter a craft in the construction industry? How do we begin to attack the cultural barrier? Finally, has any analysis or studybeen made of the barriers of that kind in Northern Ireland?
2854.
Ms Crickard:When I trained in BIFHE, I was the only woman on the course. I was pregnant in the first year, and in the second year I had a newborn baby. The college did accommodate me, but I felt like I was a special case and that was why I was being allowed to do certain things. You had to be very committed to the course. It was full of young fellas and all the tutors were male. There was a lack of understanding of the needs of women, much less a pregnant woman.
2855.
No employer would have taken you seriously unless you had the Advanced Craft Certificate in Carpentry and Joinery. I went into self-employment, and I now take trainees on placement from BIFHE; those students are all young men. No matter what happens with the courses and the set-up in BIFHE, it will be a long time before there are any female tutors or positive role models there for young women. That nurturing has to happen now to create a balance.
2856.
Ms Gadd:The way to change the culture is to develop a group of very strong and thick-skinned women who are prepared to go in and challenge theculture of male domination. To pick up on Mrs Carson'spoint, young children, when they are at school, will only see women doing jobs other than teaching when, for example, the school joiner is a woman. Only then will we create the sense that this type of job is OK and something that they can aspire to.
2857.
We must build up a positive workforce of women, who are doing those jobs, and who are preparedto stand up as representatives. I was at a careers convention at an all-girl's school. The organisers wanted to include a cross-section of careers, but in order to get women from non-traditional trades, they had to fly them over from England and Wales. They could not get any local trade representatives who had the confidence to go andtalk to the girls. Initially, specialist provision is difficult.
2858.
Ms Poots:Another concern is the lack of femaleparticipation at high levels in the new technologies, IT in particular. Many women are trained in Computer Literacy and Information Technology (CLAIT) Stage I and Integrated Business Technology (IBT) Stage 2, aswell as other business administration related qualificationsat operator level.
2859.
Ms Poots:It is at the higher level that there is money, jobs and drive at present, and the number of women in these jobs is actually falling.
2860.
Mr Byrne:This is in software engineering?
2861.
Ms Poots:Yes, and also in management, solutionsdevelopment and related areas. The number of women participating has fallen, as has the number of university graduates in these subjects, yet the Northern Ireland economy needs these people. It is a very worrying trend. It is not just about picking up a hammer or trowel, it is also about sitting in front of a computer.
2862.
Mr Dallat:I know this debate extends beyond the argument on gender balance. What is your relationship with the Educational Guidance Service for Adults (EGSA)? I ask because I have enormous respect for that organisation, and I would like to know if you have a partnership with them. How do you replicate the good work that you do in Belfast in the rest of the country? Women in Northern Ireland - and rural women, in particular - do not seem to have fared well over the last 30 years. That brings me to the targeting social need (TSN) aspect, which is as important as gender balance. So many women have lost out through 30 years of political instability. Is there a role for your organisation in ensuring that the scare resources that we have are targeted across Northern Ireland so that everyone can be released from the injustices of the past that were not their own fault?
2863.
Ms McVicker:We work closely with EGSA. All our literature is sent to them, and we have had various meetings with them. Women who go to EGSAfor career guidance, or to ask about training opportunities,can avail of our leaflets and information. Women have enrolled in our courses through EGSA. On the question of replication throughout the country, it is important tolook again at role models. The capacity of the Women'sTEC is derived from an apprenticeship project, which was funded through Peace I, via the Training for Women Network (TWN). Over a two-year period, this project fast-tracked six women - two each in benchjoinery, electronic engineering and systems management.
2864.
Those six women are now our trainers and are verypositive role models. That has encouraged many women to dip a toe in the water, as Ms Poots said, and find out what it is like to do joinery, electronics, electrical work, et cetera.
2865.
The Women's TEC does not receive mainstreamfunding, therefore our work is confined to Greater Belfast, although we have worked with the Newry and Mourne women's network. That involves replicating the apprenticeship scheme with a view to extending thescope of the Women's TEC to cover different parts of Northern Ireland where there is a need for such provision.
2866.
The training will depend on the skills shortagesand the particular needs of different areas. For instance,in Newry there might be a need for farming skills orelectronics. We hope that through Peace II and the transitional programme we will be able to replicate the apprenticeship scheme in the Newry and Mourne area.
2867.
Ms Gadd:We still believe, however, that this sort of project should receive mainstream funding. As members of the board, we have to spend most of ourtime finding ways of getting funding to continue, ratherthan looking at ways to further what we are doing. It is a big equality issue for young girls.
2868.
Mr Dallat:I am very conscious that the Rochdaleweavers in 1844 played a major part in projecting the role of women. That was a long time ago, but I have no doubt that this needs to be done again.
2869.
The Deputy Chairperson:Thank you very much for thepresentation. I know that members are anxious to askfurther questions, but time has run out. We have really appreciated the female perspective in our inquiry. It hasbeen very useful, and you have provided us with some thought-provoking material.
2870.
Some of the members have mentioned the problemof our cultural mindset, and that needs to be overcome.There also needs to be more flexibility and family-friendly policies. If we were able to crack those three elements, aswell as putting a bit of funding in place, you would bewell on your way. We know that as representatives of thefemale population, you have a very valid contribution to make to the economy and to industry, and we wish you well with your work. Thank you very much.
2871.
Ms Poots:Thank you very much. We will sendyou the information relating to the New Deal programme. Should anybody think of any other questionsthey want to ask, they may write to us, and we will be happy to write back.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 17 May 2001
Members present:
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Ms McWilliams
Witnesses:
Cllr I Hanna)
Cllr B Lewis) Newry & Mourne District Council
Cllr J McCart)
Cllr A Williamson)
Mr J McGilly) Enterprise Development Officer
2872.
The Deputy Chairperson:I thank the Chairmanand members of Newry & Mourne District Council for facilitating this hearing today and for the warm welcome and hospitality. We look forward to hearing the Newry & Mourne perspective. Indeed, Newry & Mourne Council has a very valuable contribution to make to the overall subject matter of our investigation. I understand that the presentation is going to be made by MrMcGilly, and then there will be a period for questions.
2873.
Mr McGilly:I have circulated twopapers to each of the Members here today. The first is a copy of some of the points that I am going to touch on, and the other goes into some more detail on the issues that I raise. No doubt they will be teased out in the discussion as we go along. I will just give a brief overview of the Newry & Mourne area and then address what we feel are some of the main issues in relation to education and industry.
2874.
Firstly the Newry and Mourne area has a population of 86,000. The region is home to 12 secondary schools, and four of the top grammar schools in the north of Ireland are housed within this area. It also has one of the most progressive colleges of further and higher education in Northern Ireland - Newry & Kilkeel Institute of Further and Higher Education, which is an associate member of the University of Ulster.
2875.
The college has somewhere in the region of 13,000 full-time and part-time students, and a teaching staff of about 1,400. It offers a range of courses from vocational and non-vocational through to degree level courses via its association with the University of Ulster. Probably from today's perspective one of the most interesting areas is foundation degrees. This focuses on innovation-based subjects such as networking and ICT technology, the role that industry plays in the design of those courses and accreditation via the University of Ulster.
2876.
The area is also home to a number of training organisations, such as Newry & Mourne Enterprise Agency, Southern Group Enterprises, Southern ITeC and Clanrye Employment & Training Services. They offer a range of vocational training to individuals and organisations. Those organisations are becoming increasingly client-driven in their delivery of training.
2877.
In that area, we have established the Newry & Mourne Business Education Partnership which is a partnership between the local council, the business sector and the education sector, right through from secondary schools to further and higher education. Through that partnership we have begun to tackle a number of the issues that will be highlighted later on, but it has also flagged up some issues that need further attention in the months and years ahead.
2878.
The strong small business culture is a prominent feature of the area. Of the 2,100 businesses in the region, some 95% are classified as small businesses or micro-enterprises. Another feature of the region is a strong entrepreneurial culture. Under the new business start programme, of which Newry & Mourne District Council is a key funder, the region can boast one of the highest rates of business start in the North of Ireland.
2879.
I will move on to some of the core issues in education, training and industry. One feature of our economy is still the reliance on the textile and manufacturing industry, which can be classified as the traditional industries. Industry will move further towards the modern sector and areas such as information communication technology (ICT) and telecommunications. Industry and education must work hard to bridge the skills gaps that that generates.
2880.
Another area of great importance is the linkage between Government, education, industry and training. 'Strategy 2010' has been a key document in mapping out the future of Northern Ireland over the next 10 years, and it sets a vision. Our challenge is to liaise with Government, the education sector and industry to form a partnership that helps to realise that vision.
2881.
One problem that we encounter, which is probably a feature of all border regions, is the lure of the "Celtic tiger" and the movement of labour to the Republic of Ireland, given the current success of that economy. That encourages young people to leave the area relatively unskilled, although they can demand high wages in that economy. The fear for the future is that when those people return, they may not have the skills necessary to re-enter the labour market in the North. It also creates a labour shortage in the region.
2882.
The need for further linkages between colleges of further and higher education and universities is another major issue. I said that the Newry & Kilkeel Institute of Further and Higher Education has associate membership of the University of Ulster. A satellite campus of a university in this region would be extremely beneficial on a number of fronts. It would enable the region to enjoy a wider range of degree level courses and encourage young people to stay in the area. Presently, the majority of students move out of the area to study in Belfast, Dublin or further afield,many of whom never return. However, the establishmentof such a campus in this region would encourage people to stay at home to study and possibly remain in the area for the duration of their working lives.
2883.
The gap between secondary and higher educationneeds to be addressed. The current goal remains to goto a grammar school and then to university. The secondaryschools promote a similar approach. The design of the curriculum, especially at Key Stages 3 and 4, should be more reflective of the needs of industry and encourage industry and self-employment as a viable career optionfor everyone. There is a need for stronger links between secondary level education and further educationto promote vocational training. There has been a move towards vocational A levels, but that needs to be developed and taken further.
2884.
It has also been suggested via the business education partnership that there is a need for a co-ordinatedapproach to careers advice. In many instances careers advice is a responsibility that is added to a teacher's other duties, and it is not given the priority that it requires in shaping young people's future. Schools at a regional level should co-ordinate with each other and have specialised careers advisers who regularly liaise with industry so that they are fully appraised of the changing needs of industry. The needs of industry are changing rapidly.
2885.
The council piloted a scheme of teacher placementsinto industry via the business education partnership.That was a successful initiative, but there were problemswith financial resources. The council feels that a stronger support to facilitate a wider programme of teacher placements in industry would be beneficial.
2886.
Over the past number of years the education system has been more focused on industrial placements for students. The council has weekly telephone callsfrom students seeking work placements. There are quite a number of small local industries, and it is difficult for small businesses to offer student placements.The council feels that it would be beneficial to have a centralised system of one agency for co-ordinating student placements. That would be more structured and beneficial to students, and it would offer them worthwhile placements in careers that they may wish to pursue.
2887.
Cllr McCart:I do not need to be converted to the advantages of education and training for industry. I was fortunate to work for almost 40 years for what was then the Reed International Company, which was to the forefront of industrial training. I received formal training when I was a machine man.
2888.
I have intermittently been on the board of governors of the college of further and higher education since 1967, and one year I was the chairman. I was attempting an O level in economics, and I was lecturing at a part-time course on management studies.
2889.
I am convinced that the secret for successful industrial development in our area is the development of a viable and suitable college of further and higher education. We are proud of our college of education,and I am privileged to serve on its board. However, more emphasis needs to be placed on links with industry.
2890.
Cllr Hanna:I am chairman of the board of governors of Newry & Kilkeel Institute of Further and Higher Education. Mr McGilly mentioned in his presentation that there are small businesses with four or five employees, including the owner. Those owners find that it would be uneconomic to release their young employees to come to the college for training. Is there any possibility that money could be made available to compensate the employers for the time the young person would spend in training? We have a problem getting small firms to give their young employees one or two days a week off work to come for training.
2891.
The Deputy Chairperson:Are you suggesting that there should be some form of subsidy or training grant?
2892.
Cllr Hanna:Yes, because is it not possible for a small firm to bear that cost on its own. Young people are missing out on proper qualifications through no fault of their own, and when they move on to another job they have no evidence to show that they have served their time.
2893.
Cllr Lewis:We need a major review of education in general. As Mr McGilly has said, some of the highest achieving grammar schools are in this area. There is a culture within education where people are moving towards academic education, and there is not enough emphasis put on the employment opportunities in business. Ninety-five per cent of the industries and businesses in this area are small. People need to be made aware that those things are possible, that they can set up their own business and be educated towards doing that.
2894.
We need to have an overall review of vocational and academic education. We are fortunate to have Newry & Kilkeel Institute of Further and Higher Education providing that, but I find that some people end up in industry or business by accident - it was not a career choice.
2895.
People are moving out of this area into the "Celtic Tiger" economy to work, and maybe in a few years time it will be the opposite. When we are co-ordinatingeducation, industry, business and training, it is importantthat we find out what needs to be done on a regional basis, and that region cannot stop at a border. The Newry and Mourne area is on the east coast corridor, and any strategy that is developed has to take in the whole region. Students are coming from Dundalk and Louth to Newry & Kilkeel Institute for Further and Higher Education. A lot of the job and training placements from the Institute - and subsequently the jobs that are acquired through the placements -are in the South, so we need co-ordination.
2896.
Cllr McCart:I was interested in the terms of reference for the inquiry, and particularly in two headings. One concerns the institutes of technology, formally the regional technical colleges (RTC), in the Republic. Living here on the border and having joint committees with bodies in Lough and Monaghan, wesee the successes of the former RTC's. I am confident that the big influx of ICT and pharmaceutical industriesinto the Republic was largely due to the fact that hundreds of millions of pounds were ploughed into the RTCs. I am told that each college, sensibly, majored in acertain subject. Dundalk did engineering, Letterkennydid tourism, and so on.
2897.
You mentioned the German system, which I have been interested in for some time but have never had the opportunity to examine it - although I am not looking for a trip. I know that people from here have gone there and looked at it, and there seems to be a definite and profitable relationship between German industry and the equivalent of our high schools or community schools. Have you looked in depth at the German system, or is it your intention to do so?
2898.
The Deputy Chairperson:I will deal with that question, but first I will tell you that last week we had an interesting and informative session with the directorof Letterkenny Institute of Technology, who highlightedthe system that operates in the South of Ireland. We will be looking at that model. You have already pointed out that one of the advantages of their system is the substantial funding that was made available. That is something that we must take note of.
2899.
With regards to the Germanic model, we hope to visit Denmark, because we understand that there is a system there that may be of interest. Is that similar to the German system?
2900.
The Committee Clerk:It has been recommendedbecause of its international recognition for dealing with under- or low-achieving pupils at school.
2901.
The Deputy Chairperson:We have no plans to visit Germany.
2902.
Cllr McCart:I was interested to hear the Deputy Chairperson say that the emphasis must be placed on funding. I am confidant that our colleges of further and higher education have been underfunded for a considerable length of time. The chairman of the college board will bear me out that one of the things that concerns those of us on the board of governors is the capping of the numbers of people who can enrol on courses, despite the fact that there is demand. Ironically, those people can apply to places like Crew or Huddersfield, and if they go there it costs the Exchequer a lot more than it would cost to take the cap off the numbers in colleges in places like Newry.
2903.
The Deputy Chairperson:We will move on to questions.
2904.
Mr Dallat:While we were waiting to becomequorate, Cllr McCart gave us some interesting backgroundon this building. It was a technical school, and in those days it was a direct responsibility of the urban council. Given the interest of Newry & Mourne District Council in this subject, has the clock turned full circle? Is there a need for elected councils to become more directly involved in the provision of further and higher education, given that an appalling number of problems have arisen in the intervening years? More than 20% of people leave school with serious problems in literacy and numeracy.
2905.
Cllr McCart:It is especially so with boys.
2906.
Mr Dallat:Given that elected representatives might be able to project lifelong learning projects better than some academics, who perhaps do not even live in the neighbourhood, I would like to hear your reaction.
2907.
Cllr McCart:My reaction is a qualified "Yes". Councils should have direct representation on the boards of colleges like ours, which they do not have at present. Both Cllr Hanna and myself are nominees of the education and library board; we are not directly appointed from the council. At the same time, I would not like the board of governors of our college, or any other, to have a majority of councillors. One needs a leavening of councillors - not a majority.
2908.
Mr Dallat:You must have similar problems in your neighbourhood to those in other parts of NorthernIreland. Educationally, the bottom 20% of the populationare now very important to industry given that we have a "Celtic tiger" economy across the border and neighbouring towns with almost full employment.
2909.
Cllr McCart:I am on the board of an 850-pupil high school, and I am concerned about the number of pupils, especially boys, who leave without any qualifications. The industries that normally would have employed such young people years ago cannot do so now. Industry needs qualified people.
2910.
Mr Byrne:What are your views about the type of practical skills courses currently available through training centres and colleges of further education, bethey in construction, engineering or ICT? Have you any views about the short-term aspect of skills training?
2911.
Secondly, how important do you think skills training is to the economic development of Newry and the wider area?
2912.
Cllr Hanna:It is vital to the economic regeneration of the area, because the first thing outside bodies do when deciding whether it would be feasible to start a business in Newry is to carry out a skills audit. Recently, we have found that there are not nearly enough people with recognised skills, and firms are moving elsewhere.
2913.
We suffer greatly from the "Celtic tiger" economy.Young people cannot get out of school quick enough because there are manual jobs across the border where they can earn unbelievable money. In the short term that is very good, but if they burn themselvesout - as most people do, especially if laying blocks in the building industry - they come back without any qualifications, and they are not employable. I do not know how to address the problem. We have tried our best. I do not know how we can get them to realise that they will not always be young and strong and that theyneed to re-educate themselves or have some qualificationsso that they can take up alternative employment.
2914.
Lifelong learning is beginning to kick in. It was a good while before people realised they needed it. They are coming back, but they are far too slow in coming back.
2915.
Cllr Lewis:It comes back to the educationculture, because the 20% we are talking about are actuallyclassed as failures. With the 11-plus system, children are being classed as failures. That is really where the problem starts. At present, unless children are going into academic education they are classed as failures, and they will accidentally fall into other jobs or industries. That has to be changed. It will be a long process and not an easy one.
2916.
Cllr Hanna made a point about lifelong learning. It is lifelong in the sense that there is going to be continual retraining. Most of us who have a job constantly need retrained. I am in a job in which I am off doing courses over and over again every year. Retraining is going on all the time. Lifelong also means that education is for life, and it is for life in a world that at the moment does not want 80% of people coming out with three or more A levels. There are no jobs for those people; they are not the types of jobs that are going to be needed in the future.
2917.
Mr Byrne:I still want to hear your views about the types of training schemes that are currently available, and which have been for the last five years. Are they too long-term or short-term? Do they have enough value-added quality?
2918.
Cllr McCart:We have a first-class, purpose-built training centre here in Newry, which has now been taken over by the college of further education in Newry. However, I believe that training suffered because of the uncertainty that went on for four or five years as to what was going to happen to the then government training centres.
2919.
Looking at it objectively, public money was wasted due to the duplication of courses and courses being underutilised in Greenbank training centre and in the further education college. Hopefully, waste will end with more professional management of those centres.
2920.
There was not an awful lot wrong with the courses; they were probably the right length. However, if I were to make a criticism, it would be that they did not consult adequately with local industry as to what was required. I think that somebody just sat down and said "We will do this, this and this".
2921.
Ms McWilliams:Thank you for your succinct submission. You have made some very interesting proposals, which I want to tease out a little bit more. I am very taken by the idea of central co-ordination and of an agency for placements. Have you given thought to that? Do you have a paper on it? What are the problems, and what are your proposals? Are you thinking of it as regional or as central in relation to this particular area?
2922.
Mr McGilly:This issue has been flagged up through our business education partnership, and at the moment it is very much a concept. The main problem that we have in this region is the number of schoolslooking for placements. We have many small businessesthat have difficulty finding placements. They turn people away, not because they do not see their potential but because they just do not have the capacity to take young people into their businesses. As a result, young people who are looking at a certain career option can end up having to go on a career placement elsewhere because they have to go on their placement in a certain week from their school or college.
2923.
If placements could be co-ordinated by a central agency - maybe our business education partnership, or one of the training organisations - industries could declare the sort of placements that they have, their duration and when it suits them best. It does not suit some industries to take people at certain times of the year. If there were a central database that schools could access, it would save a lot of duplication and effort, both by teachers and industry. They could go at a time when it suits them to find placements and be able to get worthwhile placements. It could also be vetted. The central organisation could do some research into the quality of placements, as opposed to just bringing a student in who maybe does not get doing what he or she is supposed to be doing.
2924.
In terms of regionalisation, we would be open to looking at spreading the net wider. The wider you spread the net, the more it may become a very onerous task, and it may not be possible to do it on a wider region basis. Perhaps it could be piloted in a district council area like Newry and Mourne, or it could be done over a number of areas. It may be too difficult, but the wider you can spread the net, the wider the range of industry that students will be able to experience. However, there is the issue of travelling, and so on, so there are constraints to it. One example is in the Dundalk region, where there is quite a strong manufacturing base for people who want to get into that field. It is a lot stronger than it is here in Newry and Mourne.
2925.
Ms McWilliams:We are taking evidence from business education partnerships, and that is clearly one thing that we may take up with them. I am taken by the fact that you are attempting to work not just on a regional basis but with the impact of the "Celtic tiger".
2926.
To follow on from what you were asking, you have had some experience with teachers into industry, and as a result you can offer a lot of advice on that because you were piloted. I am very concerned to hear you say that resources are running out, and that is something that we will have to mark up. I would like to hear from you on the teacher into industry experience. Would you say that it is a positive experience and that it should be supported?
2927.
We have already taken evidence from industrialists,and people who operate in the field of business, highlighting their concerns about the lack of advice given to young people about their careers. Hospitality and other industries have made that point. In the light of a television programme this week about what the people in the restaurants think of the people in the training colleges, and vice versa, it seems that it would be a very useful thing for exchanges to take place between them. What did you mean when you said you had some concerns?
2928.
I will finish with the issue that you raised, Cllr Hanna, about small employers facing the crisis of releasing young people. Would you support the idea of a levy? It may not work for small employers because they would argue that they have not sufficient funds, but there has been a proposal about an employer's levy for training purposes. That may be in relation to the very large employers. It would be a central fund, which would be used for training in relation to all of these issues. What are your views on that?
2929.
Mr McGilly:The initiative was piloted through the Business Education Partnership, and the council were part-funders of that scheme. We had set aside a pot of money to allow a number of teachers to go on placement. That money was largely used to pay for cover while they were out on placement. From our perspective, at a local level, there is only a certain amount we can do.
2930.
Ms McWilliams:Who actually set aside the money?
2931.
Mr McGilly:The Business Education Partnershiphad set it aside from the funding it received from different partners to run this programme. The demand from teachers to go into placement far exceeded the resources we had to enable it to happen. I was hinting at looking at some way of mainstreaming this where maybe the education board or central Government would allocate a budget for this sort of activity throughout the larger region, and not just throughout each region.
2932.
Cllr Williamson:I wish to make a comment as someone who was through this system, which Cllr Lewis referred to. I was educated at one of those colleges, and I am very proud of it, but I was not going to be a clergyman, doctor or a lawyer. I did very well, and I later became a very small businessman, though I am partly retired now.
2933.
Levies kill small businesses. VAT, and such like, are crippling small businesses. Be very careful because in this area, in particular, there is a great entrepreneurial base. For God's sake, do not kill it. In the great United States, most businesses are small businesses. Small businesses want to play their part, so try not to cripple them with levies.
2934.
The Deputy Chairperson:That is a good point.
2935.
Mrs Carson:Your presentation was very interesting and like a rerun of other presentations we have had from councils and from industry. We are hearing the same message being hammered home each time - that there is a problem with the link between the education system and training. The line is not drawn at 11-plus; it goes back to the family.
2936.
Parents have expectations for their children, and it is not always industry or manual work that is the problem. Parents may want to see their children going into "something nice" - to work in jobs where they do not get their hands dirty. There is a large education gap with both parents and children. A lot of the failure ethos comes from the failure of parents to be sensible; they can promote the sense of failure.
2937.
There is a difference between your presentation and the general issues that we were given on this sheet. You have a very good business and school partnership, but you have said that the secondary and grammar school sector does not provide training for industry. Part of the problem is that there is not a good linkage with careers teachers. They should provide a strong link between industry and schools. What is happening in this area?
2938.
We have found in other places that if there are strong links with schools and industries - such as where there are school visits and strong individual links - there is a better liaison between the two areas. What can you do in Newry through enterprise development, or through the council itself, with the money available to promote links with industry? Could the councils do more?
2939.
Mr McGilly:As a local authority involved in economic development, it is incumbent upon us to look at links between industry and schools. The business education partnership was the pilot initiative here. It was the first attempt to try to bring it all together. We have started to tackle a lot of the issues through that partnership, but we have flagged up a lot more that needs to be done. That is where the challenge lies ahead, and the council recognises that need. In the future, as we develop our next round of economic action plans, we will see how we use our resources to work in partnership with other bodies to strengthen the links between industry and education.
2940.
We have held some very successful events suchas a cross-border one-stop careers fair where all businesses came to this region and showcased themselves. All the schools from the area, from fourth form upwards, came to the fair to speak with industrialists from the area. Such initiatives have started to highlight the raft of careers that are available to young people in the area and the sort of roles that young people can play in industry. They have also highlighted that one can succeed via a non-academic route. Those initiatives need to continue, and the council will support them in the future. We see the benefit, but we know that we are only scratching the surface.
2941.
Over the past two or three years with the partnership, we have started to bond together the vital links between secondary schools, colleges of further and higher education and businesses. The commitment and dynamic is there to move that forward and tackle these issues. We need support at a regional level to showcase how young people can move into industry, have successful careers and also start their own businesses.
2942.
We have one of the best small businesses in our area. I know a young man who was first in his year in the exams for the Institute of Chartered Accountants inIreland, and when he qualified set up his own technologybusiness, which is unrelated to accountancy. Thatshows how somebody who was geared for a profession, and who probably would have been exceptionalin that profession, moved into another sector. Those are the sorts of cases that we need to showcase and highlight to young people.
2943.
Mrs Carson:Do teachers pick what they want to do, or where they want to go? Do they pick the places that are advantageous for those firms that want to train young people when they leave school? How do you work out whether the placements are advantageous for local industries?
2944.
Mr McGilly:As the initiative was a pilot, it has been in demand. We have had to match as best as we could with those industries that were prepared to take teachers on placement. Our approach could be more selective as the initiative grows and develops and as we get more industries on board. The initiative currently involves those industries that were prepared to take placements and those teachers who were prepared to go. The main aim was to show teachers and industry how the other side lives. Teachers tend to work by a certain style and, likewise, it is important that industry learns more about the education system. That was the purpose of the initiative. Our approach will become more focused as we proceed.
2945.
Mr Beggs:When you talk about industry, are you referring to manufacturing and service, or jobs generally? There is also a dilemma about local access to courses and the number of courses that can be provided. Lauded institutes of technology are much more geographically spread in the Republic of Ireland and are larger than our colleges in Northern Ireland.
2946.
I am interested in your view of the current situation of further education in the Newry and Kilkeel area. Is the satellite system working OK, with a larger overall college that provides higher-level courses? What courses are provided at the satellites? There is the access to those colleges and a number of courses that are provided. There are two diverging views on the matter.
2947.
Finally, who provided the money for educationalpartnerships? I am interested to know what all the sources of funding were. Was the experience of teachers deemed to be appropriate for Baker Days? Was any recognition or incentive given to teachers to become involved? What benefits did teachers and their students determine had arisen from the scheme?
2948.
Cllr McCart:We are ahead of the posse on lifelong learning in the community. We have just had a special bus built that has 14 computers, which will go out to community centres. We are operating in maybe up to 20 outlets. A lot of them are outside the Newry and Mourne area, and some of those are across the border. We have pioneered that initiative. Our record in that area would stand up.
2949.
I agree with the idea of having one big supercollege in Newry. While a town such as Newry needs a super college, you must not forget to also provide facilitiesin places such as Hilltown and Attical. We have an excellent working arrangement with many community associations for which we provide courses as required.
2950.
Cllr Hanna:We do not only deliver in our own premises. If Aircraft Furnishings - now known as BE Aerospace Seating Products Group (UK) Ltd - in Kilkeel needed training for its workforce, we would provide that on site. We would provide that service for anybody who demands it. We are very flexible; if they tell us what they want, we will meet their needs.
2951.
Cllr McCart:That was for a workforce of 300.
2952.
Mr Beggs:Are you satisfied with the size of the college? Who funds the business educational partnerships, and what benefits have resulted from it?
2953.
Cllr McCart:I hope that the incoming councils are given more powers to spend on economic development. How much are we currently allowed to spend?
2954.
Mr McGilly:Five pence.
2955.
Cllr McCart:That is not adequate. However, I appreciate that nothing can be done in the current year because the rate has been struck. I suggest that we should improve that figure, because that money is well spent by the councils.
2956.
Mr McGilly:The funding for the business educationpartnership comes via the council and the Northern Ireland Business Education Partnership initiative.Also local funding was secured through the district partnership to support the initiative.
2957.
The teacher placements which you referred to were where careers teachers went into industry to learn more about some of the career options that they were advising young people on - for example, finding out what exactly a graphic designer does. They were getting hands-on experience to make them more able to relate closely to how industry works and the pressures and constraints that people in industry face. Teachers would admit that they are not aware of what is going on in industry because they have worked in the confines of schools for so many years. Senior managers admit that they do not know what goes on in education. We need to bridge that gap.
2958.
Cllr Hanna:In September, we moved into the training centre, which at that time was not very well used. We are now faced with the problem of building an extension. That shows that there is a demand if there is proper marketing and relevant courses available. The only two areas that we are having a problem recruiting for are steel construction and motor mechanics.
2959.
The Deputy Chairperson:I must bring this session to a close. Thank you for your interesting contribution and written submission and also for theuse of the facilities and for your hospitality. Please convey our thanks to Newry & Kilkeel Institute of Further and Higher Education for its written submission.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 17 May 2001
Members present:
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Ms McWilliams
Witnesses:
Mr S Bannon) Forfás
Mr L O'Raghallaigh)
2960.
The Deputy Chairperson:Good afternoon. I welcome you here today. We are looking forward to hearing what we can learn from the Forfás experience.
2961.
Mr Bannon:It is a privilege to address the Committee. I manage the Trade, Skills and EU Policy Department of Forfás. Lorcan O'Raghallaigh works with me, and his work is concentrated on the skills awareness campaign. Unfortunately, our chairman, Dr Danny O'Hare, had to go on a World Bank mission to Sri Lanka at short notice. He asked us to convey his apologies.
2962.
Forfás is the National Policy and Advisory Board for Enterprise, Trade, Science, Technology and Innovation. It seeks to co-ordinate the policies in a variety of economic development areas throughout the state. Its basic functions are to advise the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Employment on matters relating to the development of industry in the state, to advise and co-ordinate bodies such as the Investment andDevelopment Agency (IDAIreland), Enterprise Ireland,Foras Áiseanna Saothair (FÁS) and Shannon Developmentand to co-ordinate their work.
2963.
Forfás encourages the development of industry, technology and trade in the state and the establishment and development in the state of industrial undertakings from outside the state. It has those mandates. It seeks to co-ordinate rather than to manage the functions of the economic development agencies which reside in the state. The management of the state development organisations still rests with the parent Department. Aspart of its interpretation of that role, Forfás also managesthree separate national committees - the NationalCompetitiveness Council, the Irish Council for Science,Technology and Innovation and the Expert Group onFuture Skills Needs. I will concentrate on the latter today.
2964.
The Expert Group on Future Skills Needs is part of a trinity of forums which was established in 1997 under the Business and Education Partnership. That trinity consisted of the Skills Implementation Group,the Business, Education and Training Forum and the ExpertGroup on Future Skills Needs. The objectives were complementary, in that the Expert Group on Future SkillsNeeds was appointed by the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Minister of Education and Science.
2965.
Its remit was to research and advise on issues associated with labour market fluctuations and labour market needs in the Irish economy, and also to advisethe Ministers on what steps to take to address those needs. It consists of members from each of the three socialpartners. There are representatives from the business organisations - the Irish Business Employers Confederation (IBEC), the small firms associations and other such organisations - along with those from theeducation establishments, the Department of Education,the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, and the trade unions.
2966.
It is, in fact, a parallel structure to the social partnership that exists in the state. The Skills Implementation Group is complementary to that. It is a group of high-level public servants, consisting of the secretaries general of the Department of Education and Science, the Department of Enterprise Trade and Employment, and the Department of Finance, along with the heads of Forfás and the Higher Education Authority. It meets to consider the recommendations that emanate from the expert skills group, and, through its influence, it ensures that the Government move to implement the recommendations and actions identified in the reports.
2967.
The Business, Education and Training Forum has evolved into a meeting, at a sub-level, of educators and the business community to review the recommendations emanating from reports produced by the expertskills group. It reviews how sensible and applicable those recommendations are, and it estimates the resourcesnecessary to meet the skill needs that are identified.
2968.
The three groups work in a clover pattern to help and advise the state on what actions it should take to address present and future needs in the areas ofeducation, skills development, immigration, labour marketchanges and in-company training.
2969.
The skills awareness campaign is an important adjunct of the expert skills group. The group started in 1997, and it began to view a number of the major economic sectors in the Irish economy to take a five to ten-year perspective on the supply and demand of the various skills needed in those sectors.
2970.
It began to address, sector by sector, the actions needed over a five to seven-year period. It looked at how the education system, in-company training, the second-level education system, and all the instruments of education and skills training in the state could be focused on addressing those skills needs. For example, the first skills report, which was produced in early 1998, identified that there was a shortfall of some 5,400qualified professionals in the IT industry. It recommended that the Government should invest some IR£75million in educational resources to meet that need and address the shortcomings in that industry over the subsequent fiveyears. That was accepted by the Government and implemented.
2971.
The second skills report looked at the area oflife sciences. In the science sectors of biology and chemistry it identified a shortfall of some 1,000 professionals.The Government and the education system took steps toaddress those shortages by putting in place extra coursesto meet the future demands and professional needs of the industry.
2972.
The expert skills group examines the supply and demand patterns in the Irish economy on a sectoral basis. It tries to match demand with supply, and itlooks at how best the demands can be addressed. It examines whether the educational system can be tweakedor changed to meet some of the skill needs, and whether those needs can be met by improving the skills andexpertise of the existing workforce through in-companytraining. It also explores the possibility of filling some of the niche areas through targeted immigration.
2973.
The third report will be published in the nexttwo to three months. It identifies a niche market need forskilled researchers, particularly in the areas of biotechnology, information and communication technologyand the physical sciences. There is a shortfall in the state in those areas and, over the next two years, we will be running a campaign to attract researchers and research assistants from EU and non-EU countries to help to address that shortfall.
2974.
The group recognises that there is little purpose in drawing up or implementing detailed reports unless we can address the issues of secondary-level education and entry into tertiary level. We have therefore put in place a significant programme aimed at highlighting to school leavers the occupations and career opportunities that may evolve. Lorcan O'Raghallaigh will explain how that works.
2975.
Mr O'Raghallaigh:The National Skills Awareness Campaign committee is a subcommittee of the expert group on skills. The committee comprises representatives from industry and education, as well associal partners. Its importance has grown in recent months;for example, its budget has increased from IR£70,000 last year to over IR£240,000 this year. The committee decides how it uses that money. For example, in the past it produced a brochure highlighting opportunities in certain skills areas, which was delivered to every secondary-level student, from transition year to sixth year. It also produced a video to illustrate each of the skills areas, which was distributed to every guidance counsellor in the country. The committee works very closely with the guidance counsellors to encourage them to spend as much time as possible in promoting careers in those skills areas.
2976.
There have been other skills awareness campaigns. For example, the Institution of Engineers of Ireland has a campaign, scheduled to run over a five-year period,to encourage young people to take up careers in engineering. CERT, the hospitality and tourism industry'straining agency, has a very extensive campaign aimed at encouraging people to enter the hotel and catering industry.
2977.
Forfás also has a science campaign to attract young people, from primary-school level, to studyphysics and chemistry, which are areas in which numbers have dropped. We work proactively and activelywith industries, schools and the Department of Education. Many major companies in Ireland, such as Analog Devices, Intel and Motorola, work with local schools. They often invite transition-year classes to spend the day at their facility with their education liaison officer.This is aimed at encouraging people to consider pursuinga career in this area by showing them the opportunities that exist.
2978.
The Institution of Engineers of Ireland holds an engineering day where every qualified member of the institution is asked to take at least one child to their work place and make it as interesting as possible. If you are working on a large building site then the child can be quite excited about that. If you are in a designoffice it might be quite different. All of those campaignsare trying to attract young people to choose these jobs as careers. We need more young people. FÁS is takinga roadshow across Europe, and as far as Newfoundland,Boston and Chicago, in an attempt to attract Irish people back, and also to attract foreign people, if they have the skills.
2979.
Mr Bannon:I would like to give you an overview of some of the work already done and some that is now in place. The first skills report was published in 1998. It focused on IT skills and identifiedthe actions to be taken. The second report was publisheda year and a half later, and it revisited the IT sector but identified that the actions we had promoted under the first report were adequate to meet the needs.
2980.
The second report also looked at life sciences and the construction sector. It deemed that there was a shortage of 1,000 skilled professionals in the area and it made recommendations. It also looked at the need for researchers and identified that the action needed was not serious enough to require work at that time.
2981.
The third report, which we are about to release, will look at the IT sector, life sciences, the construction sector, researchers and the manner in which we have implemented our other recommendations to date. There are very large skill shortages, particularly in the construction and IT sectors. The state has only begun to address the shortages in the research sector and the need for an awareness campaign.
2982.
We have published five horizontal reports. The first was on in-company training and focused on the need for education and learning in industry to be basedon a tripartite approach. The individual, the industry and the Government jointly need to address educationalneeds. We identified that there needed to be a change in the mindset of small companies to ensure that they realised that investment in the education of their workforces was an investment, not a cost. They needed to see that there would be a return on that investment. We exhorted the industry that, even though it felt that by reskilling the workforce it was doing so for someone else's benefit, it was a risk that it should take. It is difficult to change such a mindset.
2983.
There is a need to help small industries release people for training. We subsidise much of the training costs of external courses. However, there are two issues involved. One issue is the portability of training and how it can lead to qualifications and become part of a lifelong-built set of qualifications. The second issue is the need for employers to recognise that they need to reskill their workforce. One thing that people look for when applying for jobs is the opportunity for future training, advancement and skill enhancement. Unless employers provide training opportunities their workforce will be dissatisfied. There is a need to recognise that.
2984.
We also produced a report on e-business. The main core of it was the establishment of another forum, focusing on electronics, to bring together education professionals in the IT and computer sectors in the colleges, the various IT representative bodies, theGovernment and business representatives to continuallysit and refocus on the training needs of that industry. One of the issues that emerged - and this touches on the teacher exchanges that were mentioned in the earlier evidence session - was the need to acquire trainers or IT specialists who are up to date and who have the skills to provide the training in the third-level institutions that is needed for modern industry.
2985.
As with other teachers in the third-level sector, the skilled trainers or educators in that area simply cannot be afforded. Therefore we are putting together a process, involving international - particularly multinational - industry in Ireland and the third-levelinstitutions, to share skilled professionals. For example,in integrated circuit design they may be able to share the skills of work managers or operatives on the shop floor to help in course design and training in third-level institutions.
2986.
We are working on a project to look at the return of the over-55s to the Irish workforce. We have identified that the Irish labour force is down the league table in European terms, and we are looking at what incentives or mechanisms can be put in place to attract more people from that cohort back into the workforce.
2987.
We are continually doing vacancy surveys, on a regional and occupation basis throughout the country, to identify the vacancy levels down to an occupation level and to better identify the sorts of skills that we will need over the next year and how we can forecast that better.
2988.
We are looking at two other large projects. One that Lorcan O'Raghallaigh referred to is looking at the need for engineers in the economy, and the shortages that are coming up, particularly in view of the national plan that will absorb a huge number of the skilled workforce and may need a lot of external resources to achieve. Another project is starting to look at the issue of the scarcity of women working in the high- technology sector.
2989.
Mr Beggs:You may have some lessons for us to learn for our own training establishments. You said that Forfás was involved in co-ordinating, rather than managing, and trying to create competitiveness. From personal experience in the small industry sector in Northern Ireland, I have had difficulty in tendering inthe Republic because of what I consider to be restrictivepractices. Despite having the International StandardisationOrganisation (ISO) 9002, additional, very similar, quality tests were required, and those tests imposedadditional anti-competitive burdens on Northern Irelandcompanies in cross-border trading. I just want to register that fact.
2990.
How accurately have you been able to predict the future skills needs, because it is a difficult science to know where the market is going? There have been alot of successes, but have there been mistakes? Regardingyour national skill awareness, we too have surveys of where vacancies are going to be.
2991.
How have you been able to get the schools, the further education colleges and the career guidance people to think of where the job vacancies lie, rather than narrow-mindedly thinking of academia? How have you been able to take that information and move the educational world forward in conjunction with the industry's needs?
2992.
Mr Bannon:I will take your comments on board. If you mention the sector afterwards, I might be able to put a word in the right place.
2993.
You mentioned the rather inexact science - it may be optimistic to call it a science at all - in attempting to forecast skill shortages, and the demand and supply of skills, over a five to ten-year horizon. We have gone through some four iterations in four or five major sectors, and we are still widening the scope. We are getting better as we go along. It is a matter of doing it repeatedly. When you do it the third time, you were probably better than the first.
2994.
We have made blunders throughout in various places. I would prefer not to describe them, but there have been mistakes. We started the cycle in 1997-98. We have done it three times, and this autumn we will simply start again. If we survive until 2002 we will do the same. Through this continual process we are becoming better at what we do. We are becoming more knowledgeable about the labour market base, and we are becoming more effective. It will not be right, but itis getting better - we are getting closer to being correct.
2995.
The second question you asked is probablymore structural than first meets the eye. The configurationof decision making in the education sector in the Republic is such that the funding moves through the Department of Education, via the Higher Education Authority, to the third-level institutions.
2996.
The Higher Education Authority is one of our partners in managing the process. By having it and the Department of Education sitting at the table prior to the recommendations being sent to the Government, we know that the recommendations are regarded as being good. If they do not think that they are good, they will have to explain to the industry representatives why they are not doing what the industry suggests would be right and proper for the future of that industry. We are able to bring a lot of influence to bear on the third-level institutions in this regard.
2997.
We are just beginning to address the second-level sector. We have major problems there. The strengthof the economy is such that we are having difficultyretaining our senior-cycle-level students. Many of themare working outside of their school hours, which, wehave been advised, is to the detriment of their education.
2998.
We are considering in a number of our reports how we could provide incentives or regulation that would limit the number of hours that senior-cyclestudents could work while they are at school. We could put in place some sort of incentive to ensure that students do not drop out through the course of the senior cycle.
2999.
We are beginning to address the issues at tertiary level. We seem to have achieved the highest level of completion rates in our third-level cycles, but the problem with having achieved this level is that you can only go down.
3000.
We need incentives. Perhaps we need to supply specialist student advisers and a range of other people to support students who are having difficulties in theirdegree courses. We need to support students to maximiseour completion rates at tertiary level.
3001.
Mrs Carson:Your presentation was fascinating.Is Forfás a quango? Are you appointed or are you civil servants? How many people are on your board? Forfás has a broad remit. What is its link and relationship with elected members, and how does it relate back through its hierarchy to elected members? Does Forfás take direction from the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Employment or are matters left to the board?
3002.
You have a tremendous remit; you advise the Minister, and that is a large undertaking. Forfás has a very large budget for a subcommittee - IR£560 million in the technology fund. Will you provide some background on Forfás for the Committee please?
3003.
Mr Bannon:We work for Forfás, which, I suppose, is a quango; it is a semi-state body. It is not a state body; it hovers between the civil service and commercial semi-state bodies. The experts skills group is a sub-set of Forfás, and it works in the skills area. Boards are appointed by the Ministers. The board of Forfás is appointed by the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. It is broadly representative of the social partners.
3004.
Mr O'Raghallaigh:The chairman of the Forfás board is John Dunne from IBEC, which represents the business community. He took over from Peter Cassells of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions (ICTU), who isabout to be replaced by David Beggs. In 1997, 18 memberswere appointed to the Expert Group on Future Skills Needs. I will leave you copies of the reports.
3005.
Mrs Carson:That would be helpful, because I was trying to understand the lineage and the hierarchy; it is a bit confusing.
3006.
Mr O'Raghallaigh:There are 18 members. The meetings take place every six to eight weeks, and 25 to 30 people turn up. These are people who are interested in the work being done, and they request permission to attend the meetings. All the meetings are held in private; they are not open to members of the public.
3007.
The expert group reaches decisions, and those decisions are shown in an annual report making recommendations. The implementation group that Mr Bannon mentioned is made up of high-level civil servants - the secretaries general of the major implementing Departments. They look at that report and say, "Yes, we agree with that report. We are prepared to recommend it to the Ministers". The Ministers are not going to disagree with their senior civil servants. Once they put their seal on it, they are endorsing those recommendations.
3008.
To date there have been 96 recommendations out of the reports that we have published. As Séamus Bannon said, we have learnt since the beginning. Insome of the early recommendations we used such wordsas "encourage co-operation between industry, the trade unions and education". We no longer use "encourage"; we say "Here is a specific target for you to meet by the end of 2001".
3009.
We have followed up all of the 96 recommendations, and we will publish the findings from that follow-up. Anybody who is lax in implementing whatwas approved by the expert and implementation groups,and endorsed by the Government, will stand out. That is how it happens.
3010.
Mrs Carson:How are your members paid?
3011.
Mr O'Raghallaigh:They are all voluntary. Having said that, Séamus Bannon and I both work for Forfás. I am the joint secretary of the expert group, so it is part of my job. There is a member from the Department of Education, and part of his job is to beon the expert group. Part of the jobs of people from Government Departments is to serve on the expert group.
3012.
However, there are several members who representindustry, and they are there in a voluntary capacity. A representative of the ICTU is there as part of his job. David Lowe, from Goodbody Stockbrokers, is there as a voluntary appointee of a Minister. JoeMcCarthy, a private consultant, also gives his time to it.
3013.
Because we only meet every eight weeks, a subgroup is appointed to look at the construction industry. That subgroup might meet six times in those eight weeks to come up with its recommendations to the expert group. A subgroup will look at the lifesciences, or the IT sector, and come up with recommendations to the expert group. The expert group is perfectly entitled to ask the subgroup difficult questions. The subgroup must be able to answer those questions before the expert group will endorse the report.
3014.
Mrs Carson:That is fascinating, and it will give us a lot of thought.
3015.
Ms McWilliams:It is an interesting model. However, given that the model is so effective in following through to the implementation stage and setting the targets and timetables, do you achieve open public debate on the issues? Do the reports reach the Floor of the Oireachtas and are they widely debated? Is your work widely disseminated in the community? Do the press take an active interest in what you are doing? How do you generally communicate this model of work?
3016.
Where did the skills design come from? Did it come from a recognition that, in the absence of interaction between the practitioners and the teachers, people were not quite meeting the needs, or was it driven as a recommendation from one of the reports? Has it been expanded? Did it start as a pilot project? Was there much reaction from the universities and colleges to the redesign of the curriculum? Was it received positively?
3017.
Mr Bannon:There had been, since 1995 or1996, some interaction, particularly between the regional technical colleges, or the institutes of technologyas they became, and the newer industries, such as Intel, in looking at the type of graduate needed.
3018.
Out of that interaction a relationship emerged involving the public relations departments of some of the major industries and the universities. They discussed course content and how courses might be adapted. That was the genesis of it. We then captured that in a number of the reports to "cast it in stone". It was an evolving thing, rather than a piece of research that identified a need for course design and the fact that industry could impact upon that.
3019.
Mr O'Raghallaigh:I want to add one point. In the presentation that you received from Letterkenny Institute of Technology, I would be surprised if it did not mention that it is designing, in co-operation with industry, courses to attract young people.
3020.
It is competing for young people, and many young people do not know what they want to do. The Central Applications Office lists up to 500 courses around the country. Young people could be really impressed by a course in multimedia e-commerce skills at Letterkenny - or a course at Trinity College in Dublin or Waterford Institute of Technology. They can be so impressed by the course contents that theywill decide that moving to Donegal, Dublin or Waterfordis not a bad idea.
3021.
The institutes realise that, to keep numbers up, they must make the courses attractive to young peopleotherwise they will not get funding. The Higher EducationAuthority and the National Council for Education Awards will not provide funds to colleges or institutes if they do not make the courses relevant for both industry and the young people themselves.
3022.
Mr Bannon:Your questions on our relationship with the public and our elected representatives, and on the debate and discourse in relation to our work, were very interesting. Debate on our reports on the Floor of the Oireachtas is minimal. However, our reports have formed the basis of six or seven memoranda to the Government over the past years for Cabinet decision.
3023.
The expert group, in reporting directly to the two Ministers involved, somewhat bypasses the elected representative debate. It goes, through its Ministers, to the Cabinet. The discussion takes place in the Cabinet and the various Departments to ensure that they are all happy with the way the report is represented and the recommendations therein. The reports have featured in debates in the House from time to time, but not formally. The main implementation group does, to an extent, bypass debate in the House.
3024.
We have - and Lorcan O'Raghallaigh has a copy with him - a supplement that was published last January in 'The Irish Times' on the total skills work. Our reports are covered and discussed by the papers. The press coverage is not huge, but we generally send every report to the decision makers whom we consider to be relevant, both in industry and in the public sector.
3025.
We have a run of some 3,000 copies. Copies are sent by the chairman of the skills group to identifieddecision makers, drawing their attention to the recommendations and suggesting where they should perhaps play their part in implementing the recommendations. It is quite a hands-on approach.
3026.
Mr O'Raghallaigh:From a press and publicity point of view it is not one of the key issues that attracts the press. We have coverage in three newspapers -the 'Irish Examiner', the 'Irish Independent' and 'The Irish Times'. John Walsh writes in the 'Irish Independent', while Emmett Oliver and Sean Flynn write for 'The Irish Times'. When we launch a report we will get some coverage, but that is not what it is about for us.
3027.
No one in the expert group is an elected representative. They are all people from industry or work. Publicity is not the key for them. They like to see it, because it shows a response to their work, but we do not try to get publicity. The implementation of the report recommendations is what counts.
3028.
Mr Byrne:I too thank you for your presentation.In relation to the expert groups, who is taking the lead in data research between the meetings? Do you have a strong liaison with individual sectors, or their representatives, such as CERT in the catering industry?
3029.
In relation to the critical analysis and appraisal of the bottlenecks in industry, is it the commitment of the members of the group that is bringing the truth ofthe situation to the discussion table? How do you bridge the gap between the administrators, the academics,and people in the field, such as the technicians?
3030.
Mr Bannon:Taking IT skills as an example, Forfás manages the research in a subgroup context.The subgroup consists of members from the main expertskills group and some other people who we think havesomething to offer. We build on research by consultants, and, to the best of our ability, using the work that we have done previously, we identify the shortages and demands. We talk to the IDA Ireland and look for five to seven-year horizons. We talk to Enterprise Ireland about indigenous industry and look for five to seven-year horizons and employment patterns. We attempt to ascertain the occupational and skill profiles that are needed to fill the gaps, and we get that endorsed by the subgroup. In such a process we also bring together 30 or 40 of the main decision makers in one room, put the recommendations and research in front of them and ask them if the results seem reasonable. We did that in January this year, but there was a problem then because of the downturn in the IT sector, particularly in the USA. You cannot continue to research every month because of the economic fluctuations in a particular market. However, we got a reassurance that our projections for supply and demand were adequate and that they would meet the needs of the industry over the next five to seven years.
3031.
When you speak about the people in the field, I assume that you mean the educators or the trainers. We tend to use the leverage of the funding mechanisms that are represented on the expert skills group. A person from a college in Letterkenny will talk to local industry to find out what courses to offer so that the course places will be filled through the Central Applications Office. The course will then get funding from the Department of Education and Science and the Higher Education Authority, representatives of which sit on the expert skills group. It knits together - it is stronger than a moral authority. If you have a funding agency that thinks, for example, that you should offer three courses in a particular subject, you might be reluctant to say "no" if that agency is responsible for paying your cheque at the end of the week.
3032.
Mr O'Raghallaigh:You mentioned the commitment of members to the expert group. The members' involvement goes beyond commitment - they have enthusiasm for the work. It is fine for me and for Séamus Bannon to contribute, because it is part of our day jobs, and it is the same for the representative of the Department of Education and Science. It is the private members who give their own time - not just to the expert group but also to the subgroups. We do not pay them. We probably have only one lunch per year, which does not even include wine, but they still want to be involved.
3033.
Mr Dallat:You spoke about the "Celtic tiger" and about how young people can rush out and start earning big money with no skills. However, when all the buildings that are being built are completed theyare going to be occupied by employers who will demandthe very best skills. Those employers will certainly demand that their staff have the basic ability to read and write. The Department of Education and Science and the ICTU recommended an initiative to address literacy and numeracy. We would be interested to know how that has gone, because it is a seriousproblem in the North and, I expect, in the Republic also.
3034.
Mr Bannon:Could we take a rain check on that question, because I am not sure that I have the answer?
3035.
Mr O'Raghallaigh:One of our colleagues, KayHallahan, has followed that up. She has the information.I will give the Committee Clerk a call and let him know what progress has been made or what initiatives have been taken.
3036.
Mr Dallat:That would be excellent.
3037.
The report that I was referring to also makes reference to social problems and negative attitudes towork et cetera. The discussion so far has been concentratedand very good, but the real world is not perfect. That is why I asked about literacy and numeracy and why I would ask about attitudes to work and social problems. In your opinion, how can the issue of attitudes, and related issues, be addressed?
3038.
Mr O'Raghallaigh:I will give an example. Last night I was at the National Basketball Stadium in Tallaght. It was a really wet night. My son was in a children's choir and was not enthusiastic about going.He would have preferred to watch the Liverpool match.When we came out it was very cold with lashing rain, and there were guys directing the cars out. There were about 600 to 700 adults at the event. This morning I was talking to a colleague, and I said "I was really surprised to see those guys there. How much do you pay guys at 11.30 at night to direct cars out of a car park?" His answer to me was that those men would be on a community employment scheme. They would perhaps be long-term unemployed people who do not have a great attitude to work.
3039.
They get paid a sum of money per week, but they give hours to local community work during that time. Those hours are decided by a local community office - a FÁS office. Those guys drew the short straw last night and were directing the traffic at 11.30pm in the freezing cold, but they may not work the rest of the week. There are a number of people in any community who are not used to working - who do not have a positive attitude to work. That is a gentle way to try to reintroduce them to work. Perhaps it means getting them to clean out the canal for a few hours per day or to clean up the rubbish by the sides of the roads.
3040.
From my experience in the USA, I know that chain gangs are used to do that type of thing. There are various local community employment schemes around Ireland. A work party is organised under the local community employment scheme to weed the flower beds at Glendalough. It is a fine balance as to what the gardeners, the landscapers and the Coillte workers do and what the local employment office suggests for community employment. Our concentration, and the work of the expert group, has been toward the higher level. Due to the pressure that we are under, it is going to continue to be toward the higher level.
3041.
Other organisations are looking at what can be done for the lower level. Séamus Bannon mentioned the over-55s - people who are not necessarily the lower level. They have a very good attitude to work, but the employers do not have a great attitude towardsthem. Women could be a fantastic asset to the workforce,but they need to be convinced, and employers need to beconvinced, that they would make a welcome contributionto their area.
3042.
Mr Bannon:I want to add to what Lorcan O'Raghallaigh has said. We are looking - and we have not made this as public as perhaps we should have - at various means of attempting to keep people in work. We are looking at the over-55s group. We are considering the possible ring-fencing of social security payments for people who are in retirement or in social welfare systems so that they will not be disadvantaged by re-entering the workforce. A range of such issues may be the subject of a report later in the year.
3043.
We are also looking at attempting to get the maximum number of potential participants into the workforce from those groups that are traditionally not in it. For example, there are some inner-city schools inDublin that would have had only one leaving certificatestudent going to third-level education in the past five years. That is crazy. If we are to continue to get the type of workforce that the Irish economy needs, some things will have to change.
3044.
There may be opportunities to upskill people in prisons to make them more available to the workforce. In doing things like that we can cover a couple of policy issues with one approach. We also want to concentrate on early school leavers and perhaps apply something such as training grants for tertiary-level education for those in deprived areas. People would not have to go out to work, and, if they are from a socially deprived area, they may be able to acquire means-tested grants or subsistence to enable them to continue with school. We are looking at a range of social areas across the board.
3045.
The remit of the expert group is not only to look at the higher skills required by the demand-driven economy in Ireland but also to look at labour market issues. The more people that we can get from our own population into the workforce, the less we have to depend on immigrants. The impact of immigrants on housing, education and the social services will bereduced if we can encourage more of our own populationinto the workforce.
3046.
Mr Dallat:Is it true that the abolition of universityfees did nothing for the type of people about whom we are talking?
3047.
Mr Bannon:That did not do anything - certainlynot in my experience.
3048.
The Deputy Chairperson:Thank you for your contribution this afternoon, and for taking the time to travel up and meet us. Your submission was useful and informative, and we will look at it with regard to our own situation. The Committee will see how the good practice that you have employed can be applied to the benefit of all our people. We wish you well in the job that you are doing for the people in Southern Ireland.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 24 May 2001
Members present:
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Mrs Nelis
Witnesses:
Miss M Matchett)
Mr V McIver)The Education and TrainingMr R McCaughey)Inspectorate
Mrs C Bell)Department of Higher and FurtherEducation, Training andEmployment
3049.
The Deputy Chairperson:I welcome you this afternoon. Thank you for contributing to this inquiry. We have a copy of your written submission, and we are looking forward to your presentation. The normal format is that a member of the delegation makes a short presentation. The Committee members are under severe pressure for time, so if you could keep your presentation as succinct as possible, hopefully the Members will reciprocate.
3050.
Marion Matchett will be making the presentation. On a personal note, I would like to say how glad I am to see Marion. She attended the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) this morning, so she has taken up residence in the building today. She has only been in the post for six months and, as a fellow Portadown person, I have followed her career progress with great interest. We congratulate her on her appointment and wish her well as she takes up the challenge of her new position.
3051.
Miss Matchett:Thank you very much. You have asked us to keep our opening remarks brief, and we will. I am accompanied by Vivian McIver who is assistant chief inspector with responsibility for further education and training, Catherine Bell who was staff inspector, but who is now working on policy in the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment (DHFETE), and Russell McCaughey from our inspection team.
3052.
For those who have not come across the work of the inspectorate before, we provide inspection services for three Departments and policy advice to three Ministers. I will not rehearse the detail of that.
3053.
I will explain briefly what inspection is and whatwe do. We promote the highest possible standards in further education and training. We are involved in further education, the Jobskills training programme,New Deal and, in fact, in all Government-funded training,for example, the Rapid Advancement programme and the Wider Horizons programme.
3054.
We have a wide brief in terms of promoting improvement and the highest possible standards, which we do through inspection. Our inspection provides evidence to the chief inspector, the Departments and Government Ministers, and it provides the governing body and management of colleges with an independentassessment of quality. It also allows colleges to compareperformance, and it promotes the dissemination of good practice.
3055.
We provide information to the general public about the quality and standards of provision. We have two types of inspections that allow us to do that - an extended inspection covering all aspects of provision and management, and a focused inspection. Individualinspectors visit colleges, and we have district and specialistresponsibilities. That would be our involvement with further education colleges, the Jobskills training programmeand New Deal. From that, and the observationof first-hand evidence, we provide inspection advice for the colleges and policy advice to the Department.Vivian McIver will briefly describe the inspection activity.
3056.
Mr McIver:I will cover what it looks like on the ground. As Marion Matchett said, our fundamental stock and trade is first-hand evidence in the classroom, lecture hall or workshop. That is what we rely on, and that is our fallback position. We are not researchers, and we do not pretend to be.
3057.
The other fundamental is that we report as we find. For example, in looking at Level 3 provision in further education, my colleagues would have seen over 600 teaching sessions before putting pen to paper to write a draft report. That gives an idea of the size of sample on which a particular report would be based.
3058.
We report on individual institutions on a regular basis. We sometimes also report in survey form across a number of institutions, looking at a specific topic, theme or issue, and report across the Province.
3059.
The regularity of our inspections has changed over the years. In further education and training, there is a four-year cycle and an eight-year cycle, but there are much more frequent visits by district inspectors to institutions - usually, at the very least, twice a year. A significant amount of our work forms the basis of policy advice, which we give to the three Departments that we serve. A great deal of their policy is based on our advice, which in turn reflects the information that we glean from our first-hand evidence. An example of that would be information communication technology provision in further education.
3060.
Mrs Bell:I want to talk briefly about quality assurance. Incorporation made a big change for the colleges. They are businesses in their own right. Theinspectorate firmly believes that it could not inspect quality into an organisation. Even though the inspectoratevisits or inspects once every four or eight years, or a district inspector visits much more frequently, we cannot be in the classrooms all the time, given the widerange of work that goes on in a further education college.
3061.
A few years ago the inspectorate decided that it would make public its indicators of quality - the benchmarks that the inspectorate uses against which it makes its judgement. These were given to the college,which was then asked to undertake a self-evaluation prior to inspection. That document has had wider ramificationsbecause colleges have now built the process into their normal quality assurance arrangements.
3062.
During the first year of the pilot, we discovered that there was an emphasis on evaluating the quality ofteaching. That was very difficult, given that the inspectorate is trained to do that and that people going into a classroom can cause a great deal of consternation.Secondly, people need the skills necessary to evaluate themselves. We decided that we would work with thesector, and we introduced the idea of associate assessorsworking with the inspectorate. We train them, and every college has at least two people trained in the inspectorate's ways of working. They work with the inspectorate using our manual and a CD-ROM that we developed. They then disseminate that practice across their institutions.
3063.
The focus now is very firmly on the organisationtaking responsibility for its own quality with the inspectorate working alongside it, and the organisation drawing up an action plan to address the weaknesses. The first few times, colleges produced marketing plans for us. They were providing prospectuses rather than truly critically evaluating their provision. However, they have moved significantly, and in the last year we have seen a great improvement in the rigour of self-evaluation.
3064.
Mr Dallat:I read the book from cover to cover. The world is changing very fast, so is an inspection every eightyears adequate or even relevant? You answered that to some degree by talking about district inspectors, but further education colleges are often the institutions that pick up those people who have been failed by the other system, and lifelong learning is preferred here.
3065.
We were in Craigavon and Portadown last week and were told by one employer that some employees have difficulty counting up to nine in order to put pieces of material into a bag. They also cannot read simple labels. Does the inspector have a wider remit in helping to redress these problems? I am attributing no blame to further education because I am a product of it, and I have the greatest admiration for it.
3066.
Until recently the bottom 20% did not matter because they were unemployed. But now the people inthat 20% have become very valued members of society,and employers are going to extraordinary lengths to arrange educational programmes to teach them basic English and simple arithmetic. None of the employers have been critical of the individuals. They have all said that the system has failed them.
3067.
I would like to be assured that inspectors have ahands-on input and not just in the eight-year inspection.They would need to be encouraging the 17colleges to formulate special programmes depending on where they are located. That is where the employer comes in. I would like you to expand on that because it would be very important for our report.
3068.
Miss Matchett:To say that there is a formal inspection once every eightyears is misleading. The inspector goes to colleges and training organisations much more regularly than that. At the PAC meeting this morning, we referred to the surveys that we carry out, the district inspector role and the other formal inspection activities. It is therefore much more frequent than every eight years.
3069.
Catherine Bell and Russell McCaughey perhaps will talk about how that works in practice. Every eight years is the requirement on the inspectorate, and we would share your concerns if that were the only time or opportunity we had for formal inspection activity. There is a degree of regularity with a number of different kinds of inspections. As Catherine Bell has said, there is the business of saying that colleges must be much more self-evaluative and reflective regarding their own improvement.
3070.
Mrs Bell:In the last few years the inspectorate has certainly been much more involved with working in colleges. We are involved in the interface between the Department and colleges, particularly since the advent of incorporation. For the last three years everycollege has had a significant amount of work undertakenin it through inspections related to the college development planning process. Although not a focused inspection, it was an inspection in the sense that we were looking right across a major area of each college's work. We have carried out inspection work every year and in every college since 1998. Also, self-evaluation has made a significant difference.
3071.
You are absolutely right about basic skills - that is the challenge we face. We have done some work to inform the Department's strategy which, as you know, we are currently writing. We worked in aboutfive colleges to examine their work with the communityand with secondary and tertiary students who should not have had difficulties with basic skills. However, when we looked at the standards in their vocational work, we saw that many of the difficulties were to do with weaknesses in literacy and numeracy. We have worked very closely with specific colleges and the Department.
3072.
As a result of that small piece of work, we ran dissemination events with the 17 colleges in the sector. We invited the five or six colleges we had worked with, which all had examples of good practice, to share this with others. We also got them to raise matters with which they had difficulty, for there is no point in focusing only on the good practice. We must raise thedifficulties, for they are common across the 17 colleges.We therefore also got them to raise the problems and how they felt the inspectorate might help to address them, feeding back to the Department so we would have some shared understanding of the issues.
3073.
Basic skills is only one area we have examined in that format. We also worked on widening access and the "Lecturers into Industry" initiative, and we shared these experiences among the 17 colleges. Although statutorily we have a focused inspection once every four years and an extended inspection once every eight years, there is a college inspection annually.
3074.
Mr McIver:The inspections every four and eight years are when there is a full-blown visit with a very comprehensive published report. Nowadays there is a published report on all our work. Having just taken over in further education, I am told that colleges feel that they are over-inspected. I have been listening carefully to this; the 17 colleges say that there is at least one inspector with them every week surveying, talking or looking at certain departments.
3075.
There is one other small point. I am always slightly bemused when people talk about employees who cannot add up to nine, and so on. To be honest, our evidence is not of a system in further education, or anywhere else, dreadfully failing our young people on this scale. Of course, there are exceptions, and we dare not be complacent.
3076.
Mr Dallat:I suggest that you receive a copy of the report that was prepared by Moy Park. There are 250,000 people with problems. However, on thepositive side, I am greatly encouraged by what CatherineBell has said about the focus being on the community and the links with community groups, because at the end of the day they were the people who were left to pick up the pieces after 30 years of troubles.
3077.
Mrs Bell:I totally agree in terms of the 250,000 people - that is why we are pushing the departmental strategy and trying to get that right. The one encouraging thing that I have held on to is that when you look at the research, the difficulties are more in the population aged over 25 years. Younger people have fewer difficulties now. That does not mean that we do not have a challenge - we do have a challenge. The Department of Education's literacy strategy will have to address that as well. We need to focus on people aged 25 years and over, and that is going to be our challenge.
3078.
Mr McCaughey:It is the inspectorate's involvement across the different age groups from school, Jobskills 16-18 and New Deal 18+, that has allowed us to be active in initiating and instigating an exciting, potential project that addresses what I would call hard-to-help young people. The problem is not just literacy and numeracy. Moy Park would also be concerned about the ability of their new employees to arrive on time, be in a fit state for work and to be able to resolve conflict and difficulties. Therefore, it is a much more complex issue than just reading, writing and basic arithmetic.
3079.
We have convinced our own Department of Education and the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment's T&EA to look at a pilot project involving a holistic assessment and engaging young people who have barriers to learning - whether they be physical, medical, social, academic or whatever. That project is still at a very early stage. However, it is the results of our work right across all of the phases that have enabled the Departments to do something proactive and something that could be very beneficial.
3080.
The Deputy Chairperson:I would like some further information on your role with Jobskills andNew Deal. We tend to think the inspectorate is restrictedto the education sector, and I would like some expansionon that. If it does not come out in the questions, perhaps one of you could pick up on it at the end.
3081.
Mr Byrne:Given that the inspectorate is chargedwith promoting the highest possible standards of teaching, learning and further education, how does itlink in with the awarding bodies, for example, Businessand Technology (BTEC), Royal Society of Arts (RSA) and City & Guilds? We all have a duty to make sure that there is a consistency of standards right across the colleges. How much input does the inspectorate have there?
3082.
Secondly, I agree with Mr McIver that very often lecturers or teachers feel under pressure when there are inspections on a school. How involved are the inspectorate in advising on the management of a college in relation to the role and function of the level of provision that they provide for their area. Does the inspectorate get involved in giving advice to management to make sure that the college is effective, or more effective, in how it links with its community?
3083.
Mrs Bell:In 'Improving Quality: RaisingStandards', we have challenged the colleges to considerwhether the curriculum is appropriate - not only for young people but also for the community and for the employers within that particular area. When we inspect, those are the hard questions that we ask. It is only from 1998 - and, particularly, from the launch of the lifelong learning strategy in 1999 - that a clear focus for action was set for further education colleges.
3084.
Colleges have to be all things to all people, and now they are much more focused on supporting the economy. At the same time, they have to widen the access to people who previously never benefited from education. Very frequently the question is asked on how they can do both. However, we are not asking the same lecturers to do both things. We have specialists who teach the vocational courses, and we also have lecturers who are very skilled at working with people in the community.
3085.
Further education has the challenge to work with the community to help people get beyond entry and foundation levels. That is the big difficulty that exists. We have plenty of people who are engaged in learning, but not enough of them progress beyond basic learning. The inspectorate is involved with the management of the colleges and challenges them to think about how they are supporting the economy and community groups in their own areas. We would like to see more of that.
3086.
We have given these manuals ('Improving Quality: Raising Standards') to the awarding bodies as well, in order that they will know the standards against which the inspectorate makes judgements. However, the awarding bodies are profit-making organisations. Therefore, we do not have any control over them except that we work with the regulatory authorities. For example, on the National Vocational Qualification (NVQ) side we work with the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority (QCA) and all the bodies with whom they are involved. On the General National Vocational Qualification (GNVQ) we work with the Northern Ireland Council for Curriculum, Examination and Assessment (CCEA). The inspectors, particularly specialist inspectors, meet with the awarding bodies to talk about issues that have arisen during inspections.
3087.
In one of the appendices we refer to an Early Years report where a significant issue is raised about the awarding bodies. College lecturers can sometimes feel that they are working for two masters. They see the inspectorate, but they also have a body lookingover their shoulder because of the award of qualifications.When we inspect we do not look at external verifiers' reports until we have finished our inspection work, and we raise issues with the awarding bodies.
3088.
Mr Byrne:I accept the dichotomy of the awarding bodies and the inspectorate. There are people involved in delivering the service at different levels, whether that is as a lecturer, a member of this Committee or as part of the inspectorate. However, the public has a right to consistency of a qualification that comes from a particular institution, whether that is a BTEC or a GNVQ. Does the inspectorate give any advice to the awarding bodies relating to the content and the quality of the courses?
3089.
Mrs Bell:We cannot write the syllabuses, butthe CCEA and the QCA have members of the inspectorateas assessors. In the development of GNVQs, specificationswere sent time after time to the inspectorate to see whether they truly reflected what was needed for vocational education. However, we do not write the specifications.
3090.
You can see from a number of reports that we have written recently - such as the Level 3 report on some of our colleges - that some of the qualifications from some of the awarding bodies do not reflect up-to-date industry standards. Some of the units are out of date. We have taken that issue up with the relevant awarding bodies and, more particularly, with the colleges involved.
3091.
The Deputy Chairperson:Are you suggesting that the fact that awarding bodies are profit making is an impediment to co-operation and harmonisation in the delivery of courses?
3092.
Mrs Bell:No. I am not suggesting that at all.
3093.
Mrs Nelis:I have not read all your document,but I am interested in quality assurance, the links betweeneducation and training and business and industry, and your efforts to improve the images of the colleges.
3094.
In the past, the further education colleges had a serious image problem. That is now changing. I would like you to comment on your role in that change, on the linkages between the colleges, and their attempts to try to give access to those previously under-represented groups. How does that approach fit in with the New Deal training programme? What about the length of time of New Deal - which is always criticised - and the quality of its training? Is there competition between the two?
3095.
Mrs Bell:There are a lot of questions there. First, you are absolutely right about the image of the further education sector. It has suffered from a poor image, and I believe that that image is undeserved, because the colleges have done sterling work over the past number of years. The image has changed, and the watershed was incorporation. The colleges are now businesses, and they have had to become much more businesslike.
3096.
Secondly, the lifelong learning strategy gave them resources and strategy for the first time - becausethey were seriously under-resourced - and then 'Strategy 2010'supported that. Therefore, the image is beginning to change. There are still people who say that the colleges are not sufficiently focused on, for example, the economy. I do not believe that, but the collegesmust do more. The inspectorate did not have much to do with the change of image except that we were involved in giving advice on matters such as the lifelong learning strategy. We cannot claim credit for it, althoughwe have written good things in reports about colleges.
3097.
On linking and reaching out to communities, the colleges have always had an ethos of working withcommunities. However, there is a plethora of communitygroups, and many of those groups are funded through European funding, which is short-term. The difficulty is that we need to continue to resource projects and to ensure that good practice is embedded in mainstreamprovision. That is why programmes such as the "AccessInitiative", whereby the Department funds colleges toreach out to communities, are very important. Althoughthe Department does not directly fund communitygroups, it funds the colleges to work with the communitygroups.
3098.
I have no doubt that if we are going to improve the basic skills - the literacy and numeracy of all our adults - it will not be done solely in the further education sector. It will only be done if the further education sector has a large role in it, if we work with community groups at all levels, and if we work with employers - because many of the difficulties are in employment.
3099.
You also asked about New Deal. Russell McCaughey will speak about that.
3100.
Mr McCaughey:It is very encouraging to see the development and growth of the New Deal consortia, in which the colleges play a significant part - indeed, in many cases they are the lead partners. They have worked very hard at reaching out into the community and drawing in the different community groupings and organisations.
3101.
Dare I mention the old ACE schemes, for fear of stirring up a hornet's nest? Certainly some consortia have very successfully incorporated old ACE providersinto their set-ups, either as main partners or as associatemembers. There were problems with ACE, and there is no doubt that we have not cracked them all yet. ACE was providing very highly valued community service,but it was not really an employment training programme.The focus was more on providing a community service. The test is the ability to incorporatean organisation which is out to provide a service to the community, holding on to the quality of service but incorporating the good quality professional training that we regard as important. Some ACE providers, even as parts of New Deal consortia, have struggled to deal with the issues which that raises for them.
3102.
However, the New Deal lead partners are working hard with their community groups to try to help them to develop a balanced programme that maintains community service but also focuses strongly on the benefits to the client - ensuring empowermentand increased employability. That includes qualifications,as well as work experience and the improvement of self-esteem that you would develop in the programme.
3103.
Mr McIver:One of the things that helps, and which will increasingly help, the image of further and higher education is proper staff development for full-time and part-time staff. That helps to boost staff morale and increases confidence. It exists to an extent in the schools sector, and I notice that the further education people are contrasting that with their own situation, where there is not the same structure for initial induction or early, and continuing, professional development. That is an area to be worked at to generally raise morale and help to further raise the standing of colleges.
3104.
I return to this point because, as I said to Mr Dallat, teachers and lecturers take a bit of a bashing on occasions, and it is ill-merited in this Province.
3105.
Mr Dallat:That was not what I was implying.
3106.
Mrs Carson:From what Mr McCaughey said, it seems that we have a problem not just in the further education colleges but right down through our whole education system. We have people coming through without literacy and numeracy. When they are looking for a job it is too late for the inspectorate or anybody else to be expected to do something at that stage. It should be tackled in the primary schools. I visited Moy Park within the last few weeks, and it finds that the problem is that some employees cannot even listen to instructions, and this is coming through right fromprimary school. You have got to look right back down the line, because by further education level it is too late.
3107.
Miss Matchett:What we were saying this morning at the PAC is relevant, because we were looking at this issue in the context of the schools. The Department of Education, which has responsibility for schools and pre-school education, recognises exactlywhat you have said. There is therefore heavy investmentin the early years - in the pre-school expansion programme and in the school support programme - toaddress some of the issues that you have raised. The focus is to invest early in young children's developmentso that many of the difficulties can be addressed within the school sector. The school support programme is designed to do exactly that. The inspectorate, once again, has a heavy involvement in working with schools where there are particular difficulties, to help to ensure that young people get off to the best possible start and that their difficulties do not increase as they move through the sectors.
3108.
Mrs Carson:You must recognise, even at pre-school level, that listening is a skill.
3109.
Miss Matchett:Absolutely.
3110.
Mrs Carson:Listening to instructions is a skill that must be developed - but that is a topic for another day.
3111.
Miss Matchett:Mind you, people would say that the population, generally, does not listen as well as it did in the past. That is not insignificant.
3112.
Mrs Carson:Part of the inspection process in relation to further education involves assessment of the colleges' relationships with business and industry.Many of the presentations to us have been from industry, and we have heard much about what is needed.What are the inspectorate's views on the relationshipbetween education and training and business and industry?
3113.
Mrs Bell:It is getting better - there is no doubt about that. I looked at the figures recently. In the pastthree years, in the major vocational areas such as engineering, software engineering and computing, there has been a 27% increase in the number of studentstaking up places in these areas in further education. Those courses have strong links with industry.
3114.
Secondly, the "Lecturers into Industry" initiative has been very successful. It started out with engineeringand hospitality and catering, before extending into software engineering last year. In the coming year it will extend into construction. The initiative takes a lecturer out of a college for 12 weeks to put him or her with an employer to undertake a major project. The difficulty is that we need somebody to cover theclasses in the college. We need more placements from industry into further education. Many lecturers also keep up to date by working with their own professional bodies.
3115.
We would like to see the "Lecturers into Industry" initiative mainstreamed, with much more investment on an ongoing basis.
3116.
The third matter is the work experience undertaken by students. All students on vocational programmes havework experience, leading to evidence for their assignments.
3117.
The fourth aspect is that where colleges run specific courses for industry they are becoming increasinglybetter at doing it. We come across excellent examples, such as the North Down and Ards Institute of Further and Higher Education and its work with the multimediaindustry. Another is Newry College of Further Educationand its work with the hospitality industry. Those are only examples - such work is going on in all 17 colleges. The principle of working with industry has always been there, but it has only been really focused since 1998-99. I hope that, in the not too distant future, we will be able to produce evidence of all the work that colleges are carrying out in trying to support industry.
3118.
Mr McIver:The report on the "Lecturers into Industry" initiative sums up succinctly the benefits which people have gained. These opportunities are on a fairly limited scale as yet, but, nevertheless, they are highly significant.
3119.
Mr McCaughey:In response to the Deputy Chairperson's request that we keep the discussion broad on training, I can advise that there are many very positive relationships in the partnership between business and the training organisations in the operationof the Jobskills programme and New Deal. Without these the programmes could not operate. It is a marriagebetween the two. There are significant benefits to both when it works well, and when both are committed to it and to the development of their trainees. One example is Jobskills Access. Many caring employers are going out of their way to help young people who have all sorts of complex circ*mstances.
3120.
On traineeships, there are some very good examples of employers working proactively with the providers to ensure the greatest breadth of experience. Modern apprenticeships cannot operate unless the trainee is an employee. New Deal is just as good. The employment option is very successful for the majority of clients, and other options are working well.
3121.
However, in a minority of situations we, as inspectors, have been very disappointed and disillusionedwith the attitude of some employers. Government-funded schemes are looked on by some as a way of getting cheap labour and of using people for the duration of the subsidy. We have examples of where employers have restricted young people by limitingtheir attendance at directed training because of inadequatestaffing, a production rush or a job that has to happen on that day. The young person is encouraged not to attend college or training. Young people are sometimes enticed to leave training early, because they have developed adequate basic vocational skills that meet the needs of their employer, without any regard to the individual's future and long-term development.
3122.
We also have a few examples of failure byemployers to comply with the programme's requirementsand to provide in-house or in-work training.
3123.
It is not by any means all gloomy, but it is neither black nor white.
3124.
Mrs Carson:How do you inspect that? You have given us a litany of disasters. It is your programmethat is being implemented. How do you ensure that if a disaster happens once it does not happen again?
3125.
Mr McCaughey:If we come across bad practiceduring our inspection, it is reported to the training organisation. That then finds its way into the published report, and it is the responsibility of the organisation to do something about it. The T&EA is required, through our procedures, to ensure that action is taken to address those weaknesses, particularly if they are significant.
3126.
Mrs Carson:It would be helpful for us to have details and statistics to bear out what you have said, because it is an indictment of quite a lot of industry. We have been hearing the other side - where industry feels that the education system has been failing.
3127.
Mr McCaughey:We can provide those details. They are in all of our reports. Only a minority of employers are involved, and we do not want the issue to get out of proportion. I did say that there were many examples of very good employers, and very good local industry, playing a huge and significant part in the development training of young people and the long-term unemployed. There is also the reverse side, and it would be inaccurate to say that it is all good.
3128.
The Deputy Chairperson:Does the inspectoratehave any powers of redress or sanction? Have you any teeth in such a situation, rather than simply producing a written report and hoping that someone else observes it and takes the appropriate action?
3129.
Miss Matchett:We have a follow-up inspection procedure. The areas that are identified within the inspection report are revisited the following year. For example, we identify areas for development and improvement. During the follow-up inspection those issues are addressed, and we report to the Department on the rate of progress that has been made since the inspection. There is a procedure that allows us to revisit and to make public our findings on the progress made.
3130.
Mrs Bell:It is also important to say that we do not only focus on a follow-up inspection. If there is something that concerns us - as has happened in a small number of inspections - we raise that with the T&EA and follow it through to its conclusion.
3131.
Mr Beggs:I want to go back to the colleges' relationships with local businesses and industry. Over the past year I have discovered that the IDB, for the first time, has started to engage with further education colleges. During our evidence sessions we have learnt how Bombardier Shorts has had to invest to revampsome courses that it considered were failing its students. That has led to dramatic improvements, with about a 100% success rate on some courses. Were these failings previously picked up by your inspectoratereports, and, if so, why was nothing done? Why is the IDB only now engaging with the further education colleges? On assessing the success, or otherwise, of the relationship between local industry and a college, how do you carry out that assessment? Do you contact local employers to see what their views are? While it is easier for the larger employers to develop relationships, how do you assess whether the smaller employers feel that they have a college that is servicing their needs?
3132.
My final question is about the manner in whichyou carry out your inspections. There has been criticismin the schools sector where schools were given three or four weeks' notice of an inspection. That is the same as being told that you have three weeks to revise before your exams start. An inordinate amount of pressure is put on teachers by that extended period, and they would welcome a shorter period. Do you follow the same system in colleges as you do in schools, and how do you ensure that your reports contain constructive criticism, rather than comments that traumatise teachers or lecturers - which can happen?
3133.
Mrs Bell:The indicators of quality are now published in 'Improving Quality: Raising Standards'. The purpose of that is to reduce the anxiety of inspection so that every member of staff knows the standards against which he or she is being judged. There is a different relationship in further education between the inspectors and the college lecturers. That may be because further education lecturers are dealing with the adult population, and inspectors visit colleges of further education more frequently than schools. We focused on senior lecturers and lecturers, as opposed to principals and heads of departments, to work with the inspectorate and become associate assessors. We havetrained some lecturers to work alongside the inspectorate,and some of them have already worked with us on inspections. We have tried to take away any fears. Someone coming into your classroom is always going to be intimidating. None of us liked it, but we try to make it as unthreatening as possible.
3134.
We have also produced a CD-ROM, which the inspectorate has been using in training the associate assessors. Interestingly, when we show the CD-ROM or the videos, the lecturers are often much more critical than the inspectorate would be. We have to ask them "What are the good things in that lesson?" and draw their attention, for example, to the good relationships demonstrated, because the lecturers' main focus may be on the negative aspects. We focus on the positive and raise the issues afterwards.
3135.
On inspecting and reporting on links withemployers, for vocational courses the inspectors alwaysgo to where the students or the trainees are. If they are in the work place, we go into the work place. We do not inspect the employer - we inspect the college's support, and we inspect the quality of the training programme that has been drawn up.
3136.
A report is soon to be issued on training for the software industry. The inspectorate visited employers who had trainees or students who had completed their programmes to see their progress since taking up employment.
3137.
You asked about the IDB. We did not mention the IDB formally in our reports. However, we spoke to the T&EA when the Department of Education for Northern Ireland and the T&EA were two separate departmental structures, to ensure that colleges wereinvolved with the enterprise organisations. Unfortunately,prior to 1998 there was a perception that further educationwas not supporting industry sufficiently. We hope that this perception has changed. We now stress the need for colleges to be involved with the IDB, LEDU, the Industrial Research Technology Unit and the new Departments.
3138.
Miss Matchett:I want to say something further about the concerns of those being inspected. It is only natural for people to be anxious - such activity can be quite stressful.
3139.
The inspectorate does not wish to add to the stress; it wishes to continue working with colleges to promote improvement. However, should a college experience difficulties during an inspection, there are procedures to allow it to approach the chief inspector directly with any concerns. That has happened. Wefollow up those concerns, because we want inspection to enable colleges to improve rather than to disable them.
3140.
The Deputy Chairperson:Thank you verymuch for your written submission and for your informative presentation. They are a useful contribution to our inquiry.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 31 May 2001
Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Ms McWilliams
Mrs Nelis
Witnesses:
Prof G Bain)
Mr J O'Kane)
Prof R Cormack) The Queen's University of Belfast
Mr T Newsom)
Prof E Beatty)
3141.
The Chairperson:Good afternoon, I welcome you to the evidence session this afternoon. This is an ongoing inquiry on the training system in the Province, and its impact on industry. Today's session will meanthat we have heard from all three universities based herein the Province. We are pleased to have your contribution,and we are grateful for the written submission that you have given to the Committee. If you would give a short introduction we will then take questions and answers.
3142.
Prof Bain:The first point I want to make is now so well known we can almost take it as read. The future of most modern economies rests on knowledge, and human capital is now a much more important aspect of economic development than financial capital. That is almost universally accepted and I will notlabour that view. One of the important corollaries that flowfrom this is the importance of universities in thatkind of economy. Universities have an extremely important role to play as the generators of new knowledgefor that kind of economy, partly through producing graduates withthe requisite skills, and also through producing research that provides the basis for economic development.
3143.
As far as research goes, I am sure the Committeeis familiar with the reports that stress the importance ofresearch and development (R&D) for economic development in Northern Ireland. I would also stress the disproportionate role that universities here play in producing that research base compared with other parts of the United Kingdom. This is because the economy here is characterised by small and medium sized enterprises (SMEs), which have less capacity to produce their own knowledge base, compared to large multi-nationals.
3144.
Maintaining that research base in universities concerns both ourselves and also our sister institution, the University of Ulster. Although we have been extremely grateful for initiatives such as the support programme for university research (SPUR), a great deal more needs to be done. Comparing us to Scotland, or indeed, our neighbours in the Republic of Ireland,the amount being poured into research and development there is very much greater than here, even taking SPUR into account. You are probably familiar with the technology foresight initiative in the Republic. £560 million is being poured into that over the next 5 or 6 years. That is in addition to the £240 million already committed to university research.
3145.
I will leave research and development and say a word about the skills base. It is almost a truism now in economic development that human capital is more important than financial capital. I have only been at Queen's University for four years, but looking back, it has always played a critical role in supplementing the skills base. Policy has changed in the way the economy has evolved. If you go back to the days when manufacturing was key - shipbuilding and engineering more generally - Queen's was producing engineers, and the other professionals in medicine, law and teaching. It is interesting the way that that has changed.In the 1920s, as aircraft manufacture became animportantaspect of economic activity here, Queen's provided courses in aeronautical engineering - indeed,we still have a joint venture with Shorts. Today, we are putting a great deal of emphasis on areas such as computing and IT. People sometimes forget that the whole world does not revolve around computing. We have been producing new programmes in film, drama and art, to provide the underpinning for what is now generically referred to as the creative industries. That is something worth saying about the skills base.
3146.
Finally, I will give a minute to widening access. Clearly, if you have all this excellence, and you do not want it to become elitist, then you have to pay some attention to ensuring that those who can benefit from this, can get access. There are a number of initiatives, which I will do little more than list, and then you can explore them with my colleagues and myself if you wish. We are introducing foundation degrees. Thanks to Prof Cormack, we have two very imaginative newfoundation degrees. We have the " Discovering Queen's"programme, as we call it, which extended initially to schools in the Belfast area, but is now in schools in Armagh and Omagh, where our outreach centres are located. The purpose of this programme is to reach young people in schools that have almost never sent people to higher education. We are also developing close relationships with further education colleges. One thing that sometimes gets overlooked is the Institute of Lifelong Learning at Queen's. We rank ninth in the United Kingdom for the number of part-time undergraduate students that we have. Those are some of the things that we are doing. The important things for us are research and development, the skills base, and access.
3147.
Mr Carrick:In paragraph 6.2 of your submissionyou highlight the establishment of a skills co-ordinatinggroup. To what extent does that group take on boardthe needs of the industry at the coalface? The submissionrefers to the skills development programme throughout the university, but it also mentions subject-specific skills, key skills and employability skills. They are all nice terms, but I hope that there is more to this than jargon. How does the university define those skills, and how do the terms relate to the need for those skills in the market place?
3148.
Prof Cormack:The starting point is the Dearingagenda. The skills co-ordinating group is a group ofacademics in the university who organise the developmentof key skills and ensure that these are embedded in our courses. We do that in different ways: some courses have a skills module; other courses try to embed the skills in the modules. Ultimately our aim is to produce very literate, numerate and IT literate graduates who have the sort of skills that employers require.
3149.
The dreadful term "oven-ready" graduate is going about at the moment. The problem for Queen'sUniversity is that we have only three years to ensure thatour students are in command of a certain knowledge base. In addition we try to teach them as many employability skills as we can, but there is only so much that we can do. We have to say to employers that we will do all that we can to supply you with "oven-ready" graduates. There may be a training need beyond graduation which we at the university are more than happy to fulfil. However, employers must be careful that they do not put too much pressure on us to cram everything into a three-year programme. We are trying to get a balance in the process of introducing and embedding these skills in all of our undergraduate modules and courses.
3150.
Mr Carrick:Are you happy that your interactionwith employers is meaningful and that you address the issues in partnership with them?
3151.
Prof Cormack:The best answer to that is that we are increasingly introducing work-related learning into our undergraduate degrees. The term "work-related learning" is chosen carefully because there are all kinds of ways to bring work experience into the undergraduate programme. The most obvious method is for students to go out on a placement. However, there is another very successful way through project-based learning - we have brought the world of work into the undergraduate programme. Employers give usa project that students work on while they are at university.They then discuss the project with the employer and produce a report for them. A couple of years ago, one of my students did a wonderful project on absenteeism with the Rivers Agency which they were very pleased with. She studied absenteeism in different categories of workers such as clerical staff, manual staff, and so on. The project introduced her into the world of work very well, but it also produced something useful for theemployer. We are learning a lot through interaction and are as responsive as possible to the needs of employers.
3152.
Prof Beatty:With regard to specialist postgraduatetraining, for example, the MSc in telecommunications, we are working with a telecommunications company to see if it will sponsor students and contribute to teaching programmes - complementing the work of our staff. We interact well in specialist areas, where we work closely with industry.
3153.
Mrs Carson:We have had great lobby sessions with industrialists who have pointed up a number of matters. Paragraph 4.2 discusses partnership between higher education and industry. In what areas do you intend to work with industry? You speak of IT, yet that industry now has problems. Have you thought of anyother specific university courses that you might pinpointfor work with industry?
3154.
Prof Cormack:Foundation degrees have developed in a specific way in Northern Ireland because Minister SeánFarren has been most keen that they address Northern Ireland's skill needs. We were very much given the steer that it was more than likely to be in the area of information technology. We have developed a degree in web technology with OmaghFurther Education College and one on the creative industries with North Down and Ards Further EducationCollege in Bangor. The employers we are dealing with are British Telecom and the BBC, and they have been intimately involved in the development of those degrees. The students will be on placement with themas part of the degree course. We hope we are developingskills recognised by employers.
3155.
The interesting thing about Omagh is that there is not a great deal of IT employment in the area. The hope is that, by teaching people these skills, it will help attract inward investment, supporting everything that Leapfrog and Prof Fabian Monds are trying to do, particularly in Omagh.
3156.
Mr O'Kane:A number of other initiatives go out from foundation degrees. Our Institute of Lifelong Learning, formerly the Department of Continuing Education, has been relaunched, since it is now widely accepted that we are all learning from the cradle to the grave. We are about to embark on a major continuing professional development (CPD) programme in the Institute of Lifelong Learning. That programme will attempt to take on board the needs of industry, business and SMEs in the local economy. We are running around 200 programmes, and around 4,000 peoplecurrently in employment have been through the NorthernIreland Technology Centre's management programmes.
3157.
Other key initiatives are currently doing very well. The two main Northern Ireland universities run the largest teaching company scheme in the UK, which is widely recognised as being very successful. Indeed, the Government are planning to invest significantly more resources in view of the success of Northern Ireland's version of the scheme where graduates go out into local companies.
3158.
Two other initiatives are currently underway,the first being the Northern Ireland Centre for Entrepreneurship, which was launched about twoweeks ago during innovation week. The concept of undergraduates and postgraduates following modules in entrepreneurship and innovation is included in that, and will bring substantial benefits to students. The other initiative is the Higher Education Reach Out to Business in the Community. We have established a Northern Ireland Industrial Advisory Committee as its focus. To return to an earlier question, it is made up not only of academics but, more importantly, industrialists. They are shaping the programme and the training initiatives we need.
3159.
Prof Beatty:It is common, certainly in theFaculty of Engineering, where each engineering department has an industrial advisory board. These boards play a major role in steering the content of the courses in partnership with the faculty.
3160.
Regarding research, we have had two successful partnerships. Firstly Seagate Technology, and currently with Nortel Networks. At research level there is significant collaboration, to produce research-trainedgraduates. We are fortunate to have a number of industrially sponsored chairs. DuPont (UK) Ltd sponsorsa chair in chemical engineering and has had a major influence on how chemical engineering istaught. Shorts do the same for aeronautical engineering,as do Nortel Networks for telecommunications and Boxmore International plc for the plastics industry. First Trust Bank have just put forward money in partnership with the Industrial Research and Technology Unity (IRTU) to establish a chair of innovation.
3161.
Mrs Carson:You said that your outreach centre in Omagh is bringing IT skills into the Omagh area. I am concerned that we are educating the people in thatarea only to lose them abroad. You are hoping to attractindustry, but I would be keen that you are workingwith established industry to see what their requirementsare. The Committee has heard that established industrieswant people that are of use to them, which is the direction that we must take. I am concerned about the Omagh situation and would like to hear more about it.
3162.
Prof Cormack:Omagh District Council has stated that this is what it wants to see developing there. We are trying to fit in with the aspirations that the people of Omagh have for the town.
3163.
Prof Bain:We are trying to co-ordinate our activity with their development plan.
3164.
Mrs Carson:That is a dream, which they are working towards. I am more interested in your dealings with established industry.
3165.
Mrs Nelis:In paragraph 1.6, you speak of difficulties with the university losing staff in key areas such as computer science and electrical engineering, which are crucial to future industrial needs. You are trying to address this because you state that you see a role for industry. Will you elaborate on that? What innovative solutions do you have in mind? So many of your graduates are overseas, and have done quite well. There was a programme several years ago to try to attract many of the graduates who are in business in many countries back to Northern Ireland. Would that be one of the innovative solutions that you might contemplate trying?
3166.
Prof Bain:The main retention problem occurs before people go to university, which is something wemay come back to. Many people are reluctantly leavingNorthern Ireland, as I am sure you are aware, to go to university elsewhere. I am a case in point. If you leave, you may well not come back, which in my case has not been a great loss to Canada. I do not say that in modesty but simply because many other people are going, but we have not got the same reciprocal balance of trade.
3167.
Of those who get educated here the situation is better than one might imagine. For example, in 1989 to 1999 - taking the fields that have been mentioned - 90% of first degree graduates in electrical and electronic engineering stayed in Northern Ireland. In the computer and science area, 86% of the first degree students stayed. Those figures are high - between 85% and 90% of those who studied computing and electrical engineering stayed. The real leakage out of the system occurs at the beginning rather than the end because there are not enough university places to retain everyone who would like to study here. Many do not want to study here, they prefer to go across the water for a whole range of reasons, but that is the key shortage.
3168.
Mrs Nelis:I was asking about the graduate drain and staff retention.
3169.
Prof Bain:The main issues with staff retention are facilities and salaries. The problem is that there has been a tremendous deterioration in academicsalaries over the years. That sounds slightly self-servingbut I am not referring to the vice-chancellor's salary; I am referring to the salaries of key people who could earn a great deal more in certain areas outside academia. Queen's is addressing this at present; it is conductingan exercise trying to revise the salary structures. Havingbench marked Queen's against other institutions, we concluded that salaries are below what the sector is paying generally. Of course, it will only make Queen's competitive with other universities. Academia is not competitive with private industry.
3170.
That is where the second point comes in, and I had this problem in a big way in a business school in London. Some academics can never be paid what theycould earn in the private sector. People go into academic life and are prepared to take a differential because they can pursue their own research and teachingagendas. That is why research and development is so important. The academics that you really want to retain - those at the cutting edge of their subjects, bringing in the innovation and new ideas - do not expect to be paid exactly what they could get in private industry. If they did they would have gone into private industry. However, they do expect state of the art facilities and adequate resources to pursue their research. We must pursue the question of infrastructure in universities along with the salary question.
3171.
Mr O'Kane:Clearly there has been substantialexpansion in areas such as information and communicationtechnology. However that expansion has been funded on the cheap because the funding that was made available was equivalent to the unit price that is attached to a particular student for teaching. To some extent the issue that the vice-chancellor raised about the necessary infrastructure required to create the facilities that will attract the academics to teach the subjects is not available. These facilities cannot be funded at a level of £4500 per student. That is the key thing that is missing from the Government's agenda totry to drive up supply in this area, and others of economic relevance to the region. The Republic identifiedand put in place a fully funded strategy that enabled it to respond to the need to create the labour that would service the expanding software and information and communication technology industry.
3172.
Mr Beggs:Academia seems to be acknowledgingthe importance of creating relationships with industry, and Queen's is working to improve that. However, do you feel that in Northern Ireland - with its mainly small and medium sized enterprise base - businesses have recognised the contribution that academia could make to them by helping them to upgrade and improve their competitiveness?
3173.
Secondly, 3.4 of your submission states that 100 students are doing a post graduate conversion course in computing. Whilst welcoming that, does it imply that there is a gap in our careers guidance? Have you found that some students have been badly advised at school? What improvements do you think should happen in careers guidance at secondary level?
3174.
Prof Bain:Small and medium sized enterprises are less aware of what universities can do for them than large companies are. Ironically they probably have a greater need for university research forthe fairly well known reason that I gave at the beginning- they have less capacity for generating theirown ideas. However, good examples do exist.
3175.
As you will know better than I, the plastics and packaging industry in Northern Ireland is a key sector and depends heavily on technology-led ideas. I can take no credit for this but one of my first actions when I came to Queen's almost four years ago was to launch a polymer processing research centre and a new chair in polymer processing engineering. A great deal of this research has been funded from a number of small companies coming together in the plastics industry. They felt that although they were competitors, they had something to gain from joining together to sponsor research with Queens in an area where ProfRoy Crawford was a leading expert. We still have a thriving polymer processing research centre. Looking at it from the outside, the key was leadership in the form of a professor at Queen's who was a leader in research and development. He had a vision as to how he could reach out to these firms. We also had leaders in the form of Mark and Harold Ennis at Boxmore who felt that they would take the initiative in bringing their colleagues together in industry. Yes, there are difficulties but there are examples where these can be overcome to mutual benefit
3176.
Prof Cormack:To get the right advice one first needs to ask the people in secondary schools. The Committee has identified a number of issues in itspreliminary comments on careers educational guidance. We also have a strong statement from Munster Simms Engineering Limited - I can see the hand of Alan Lennon behind it. To defend Stranmillis and St Mary's, they are increasingly encouraging student teachers to enter industrial placements so that they have some relevant experience that they can bring into schools.
3177.
The reason students are taking masters conversioncourses in computer science is that some of them may have made the wrong choice of first degree, but others may have chosen to do a non-vocational first-degree course through choice and then decided to do a vocational course after that. I see nothing wrong with that and I am sure people in the computer industry might argue that it is a good thing to have a workforce with diversity of experience.
3178.
Mr Beggs:Is there still not a culture tendency to recommend the professions to students and not look to the world of industry?
3179.
Prof Bain:You can see that tendency to some extent with parents. You also see it not just with the professions but also the public sector, which provides a more secure career environment than the private sector. As a footnote to Prof Cormack's point, I come from the world of business schools, but I am firmly against the notion that you have vocational and non-vocational subjects. In a rapidly changing economy the critical things are basic transferable skills like oral and written communication, numeracy and social skills. For example, the last person I would choose to take a Masters of Business Administration (MBA) at London Business School or Queen's would be someone who has read management as an undergraduate subject. I would prefer to have a philosopher, an English student, or a modern language student because you are looking for cross-fertilisation. There is something to be said for having a broad base with generic transferable skills and then being able to decide the application. A lot of children do not know what they want to do at 18 - I did, but I have not been doing it, thank goodness.
3180.
Ms McWilliams:You have been here for four years. In relation to students' communication skills, my own experience in higher education is that our students are taught how to write, sit exams and prepare dissertations, but they also learn how to communicate and develop social skills - which is a different kettle of fish. Can you reflect on what extent the university has developed those skills? You have described the sort of graduate that you would like to go in to business. Are we growing such graduates? Given the concentration on the skills side, as regards engineering, plastics and IT, how much are you developing the communications side?
3181.
Some of us believe that the peace process has started to develop. You have been here during that time. Graduates have been sent abroad as part of thatprocess, with American universities taking a considerablenumber of graduates from Queen's University. How many of your programmes allow for that? Have you been able to evaluate and monitor the outcome of sending those graduates abroad? Will the funding for that continue, or is it still dependent on American input to the peace process.
3182.
The Committee received a deputation today from the Northern Ireland Business Education Partnership(NIBEP). What is the relationship between the new work placement centre and that group?
3183.
Prof Bain:In my four years here, I have been slightly disappointed with the lack of interchange. Less than 3% of our students come from outside NorthernIreland. Apart from one exception, which I will deal with later, there are not enough exchange students goingabroad. We run two streams of modern languages, which is a shock to me. We have students that want to study modern languages but do not want to study abroad in their penultimate year. That is almost a contradiction in terms.
3184.
There is something about Northern Ireland that people really like. They do not want to leave. Queen's University, and I imagine the same is true of the University of Ulster, is too Northern Irish - and that is not meant disrespectfully. People learn from diversity, and we have not got enough of that. We are looking at developing exchange programmes. We are discussing a three-way exchange between Trinity University in Dublin, Boston University and Queen's University. I was at Notre Dame in Illinois a few weeks ago trying to develop that. This is the real way forward.
3185.
Prof Cormack:Last night, the 'Belfast Telegraph'ran a story about two of our law students who won a competition in New Zealand. That shows that some students do come through with exceptional communication skills.
3186.
Ms McWilliams:I was thinking about non-law students. It would be tough for law students who did not have good communication skills.
3187.
Prof Cormack:University teachers recognise that communications skills are very much a product of the school system. In a passive school system, students take notes, learn them, sit the exams and then leave. Those students then go to tutorials at Queen's and expect the lecturer to tell them what he or she wantsthem to know. That has actually changed over the years. Students are becoming much more self-confidentand articulate than when I started at Queen's 30 years ago.
3188.
Ms McWilliams:I asked that question for comparative purposes. In our experience, American graduates or undergraduates are confidently articulate. We have to ask ourselves what is happening to our own undergraduates and postgraduates. I know that some undergraduate courses are building these skills in, because if you cannot explain your own profession to someone, you are in trouble.
3189.
Prof Cormack:You will know about the Business Enterprise Initiative (BEI) programme wherewe place students with a number of undergraduate colleges. That is supported through the generosity of theAmerican churches, without which it could not be sustained. We hope that they will continue to be as generous as they have been in the past. A work placement centre is being established. We have been talking with NIBEP and other interested parties, and their views will be fed into it.
3190.
Mr O'Kane:I want to add one thing. The medical profession is not well known for its bedside manner skills and the medical curriculum has changed substantially, to take on board the issues that Ms McWilliams mentioned. We are running a pilot scheme where third and fourth-year students are going out to schools to develop their communication skills away from the hospital and clinical settings. The curriculum has changed so that we will produce doctors who have social and communication skills, which are essential to the service that the NHS is trying to provide.
3191.
Prof Beatty:To refer back to Ms McWilliams's point on the placement of people in the community, werun the largest International Association for the Exchangeof Students for Technical Experience (IAESTE) programme in the UK. Queen's sends 90 young people overseas every summer. Equally, we have talented young people coming to the Province to work for eight to ten weeks in our industries in the fields of science and technology, medicine and agriculture.
3192.
You also mentioned NIBEP, and the university is represented on the board of NIBEP. At a strategic level, discussions take place between Mr Costello and members of the growth challenge board, and now with the new centre for competitiveness. The training and education committee of the competitiveness centre is the obvious link.
3193.
Mr Dallat:It is to be hoped that society does not have the "nutty professor" at one end of the spectrum and the "village idiot" at the other. Queen's University has done a lot of work to dispel that cruel image. You talked about the success of the Republic. Is someone looking down from the balcony in the North and deciding on the product mix or trying to steer things in a direction that will satisfy everyone? Will they protect the creative arts and modern languages and, at the same time, produce the people needed for industry rather than "oven ready" graduates? What needs to be done to ensure that the product mix isright? The Assembly respects equality and targeting social need, and we put the university at the centre of that.
3194.
Prof Bain:My academic speciality used to include manpower planning. If we look back at the attempts at manpower planning in the '60s and '70s, and the attempts to pick the winning industries, it was disastrous. I conclude that it is good that we do nothave a "Big Brother" or "Big Sister" looking down, trying to be all knowing and deciding which sectors shouldexpand or contract. Almost invariably we would get itwrong. The answer is pluralism. You probably want many initiatives and stimuli that will signal which areasshould be expanded and which should be contracted.
3195.
One area in Queen's academic plan is admission targets - which identifies areas that should receivemore places from the Department of Higher and FurtherEducation, Training and Employment. We look at admission trends, employment trends and a range of intelligence data to help us. Sometimes there is aspecific earmarked grant for more students in computing.I think that it is bad to have centralised planning or direction.
3196.
Mr Dallat:I was not proposing the reintroductionof communism. However, employers are telling us otherwise - good employees cannot count to nine or readsimple labels. That 20% of the population cannot be left aside. There must be some good ideas in your lifelong learning programmes to address the rights of those people.
3197.
I am also concerned that the two biggest further education colleges are now independent because they are big enough. I had better be positive and say that the other 17 do wonderful things. However, there must be some mechanisms that ensures maximum performance, so that we end up with educated people who contribute in a wide range of subjects and not just in electronics or whatever.
3198.
Prof Bain:The comparative advantage of universities is not to teach basic literacy or numeracy - other people can do that much better. However, if I can put it in a nautical way, there are people who have missed the boat the first time around, maybe even the second time around, and then manage to achieve a level of education which shows that they would benefit from a university education. It is our duty - and I was trying to hint at that through widening access - to ensure that they get on the boat the second or third time it comes around.
3199.
We have tried to do that - and Prof Cormack has more knowledge of that than I have - in a number of ways, partly by closer articulation, to use the jargon, with further education colleges. Students in further education can see how this translates - if they achieve certain goals they can enter Queen's, the University of Ulster or elsewhere. We have tried to do that throughthe "Discovering Queen's" programme, because it is best to reach people as early as possible. We have starteda programme that ultimately will begin to introduce children from age 11 onwards -for obvious reasons - leading to summer schools for sixth-formers, which is to prepare them for Queen's or other institutions in the Province.
3200.
Prof Cormack:The Committee will form its own opinion about 11+ selection and the Gallagherreport, and the implications of that are for you to question. The big concern in the further education sectoris a drift into academic and upper vocational courses. The 20% you talked about were probably rather badly treated by the formal secondary school system, and we expect further education colleges to address that.
3201.
The Chairperson:The amount of resources per capita going into higher education has dropped substantiallyover the last 10 to 15 years. Which way of boosting funding would be best - increased Government spending, raising tuition fees, the top-up fee system,a graduate tax, or some form of deferred contribution? If my reading is accurate, UK universities seem to be unable to form a consensus among themselves as to the best way forward. Perhaps it is unfair to ask if there is a Queen's University view. Would you like to comment on that?
3202.
Prof Bain:We should like an increase from all three sources, but I assume that was not quite what you were asking. At one level it is very complex, but at another rather simple. There are only three sources of money for higher education, and you touched on themall. It can either come from the consumers -the students- the Government, or employers. It occurs to me nowthat there is a fourth source - that of private fundraising,or what we euphemistically call "development".
3203.
As you say, that which comes from the Governmenthas been declining. Maybe I am conditionedby my North American background, though I have been here almost 40 years now. I do not believe that any mass system of higher education can be funded from general taxation, if one is to expect the politicians levying the taxes to be re-elected and the quality to be maintained. When I came to the United Kingdom in 1963, we were educating 9% of the cohort. You can certainly fund such a system from general taxation, but it is elitist. Once you start getting a participation rate of 44%, as I believe we have in Northern Ireland - or even 35% inthe UK as a whole - funding the systemfrom the publicpurse through taxation while maintainingquality becomesvery difficult.
3204.
For that reason, you must begin looking at private funding, and both Queen's and the Universityof Ulster have recently set up development departmentsto help try to raise it. However, there is a limit even to what you can get from that. The conclusion I come to is that fees are inevitable. In part you must ask those who are going to benefit to help contribute. Speakingas someone who came from a working-class backgroundand paid fees to come to university myself, I feel the critical thing is how you do that. In Northern Ireland - or at least at Queen's, and I am sure the figures at the University of Ulster are very similar - only 42% of students pay full fees. The other 58% either pay partial fees or none at all. Perhaps Mr O'Kane has a breakdown at his fingertips.
3205.
Mr O'Kane:Thirty-eight per cent are fully sponsored, and 20% make a part contribution.
3206.
Prof Bain:Basically it is a 60/40 split. The reason we welcomed the Minister's initiative was that he was targeting the inevitably scarce resources where they were most needed. I feel that was a very good thing to do, as I regard free higher education as the most regressive tax in the system. You have the parents of bus drivers and factory workers subsidising the children of vice chancellors and doctors. In a regime of limited resources, I would rather see the money going to those who really need it. I speak not of Northern Ireland but of any mass system of education when I say that, unless you take the Italian or French route, where people cannot even get a seat in lecture theatres because of the numbers, you are inevitably thrown back on some system of student fees.
3207.
It is critical that those fees do not discourage certain socio-economic groups from applying. A graduate tax is a better way of doing that than having large debt. However, one then gets into second order questions. If I had to place a bet I would say that Britain will have top-up fees in the next five years.
3208.
The Chairperson:Thank you for the written submission and your answers.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 31 May 2001
Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Ms McWilliams
Mrs Nelis
Witnesses:
Prof B Norton) NIBEP
Mr B Smart)
3209.
The Chairperson:The representatives of theNorthern Ireland Business Education Partnership (NIBEP)are welcome to the Committee. Professor Norton will make a short introduction on which the Committee will ask questions.
3210.
Prof Norton:NIBEP is an umbrella organisationunder the auspices of the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment and the Department of Education. It promotes and develops links between business and education and aims at producing an insight into the business world and at producing a workforce in Northern Ireland capable of competing on the world stage. It aims at developing the knowledge-based economy.
3211.
NIBEP works through a range of initiatives, and it is founded on the grassroots through local and areabusiness education partnerships so that it can address theneeds of small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs). Italso aims at addressing local community needs by bringing major investors to Northern Ireland that will contribute to the economy by providing money for initiatives.
3212.
NIBEP has a diverse board. The chairman is from Marks & Spencer - and he sends his apologies for not being here - I am the vice-chairman. Representatives from education, local authorities, industry and training support NIBEP's activities.
3213.
Mr Carrick:What do you mean by "social responsibility"? What does NIBEP expect from modernbusinesses? Are there different expectations of small andmedium-sized enterprises and the larger companies, andhow is social responsibility measured across businesses?
3214.
Prof Norton:Industry and commerce require good education and good social order; but they mustcontribute to them. There cannot be links between schoolsand industry and commerce unless representatives fromindustry and commerce give of their time to come into schools and participate.
3215.
To create a successful economy, companies mustbehave with a certain altruism in their local communitiesand beyond them. That is easier for larger companies as they have more resources to deploy and can second people to enterprises. However, it is probably more important for smaller companies. They are more likely to be the engine of NorthernIreland's economy in future. This is by no means to disparage multinationals- we like to get their branches here - but they tend to betransient. The development of an indigenous knowledge-based economy will be based on small and medium-sized enterprises, so it is more important that theycontribute to forming a society and an educational systemthat will service their needs.
3216.
The 27 local business education partnerships (BEPs) make a great effort to ensure that they attract and train local small and medium-sized enterprises.
3217.
Mr Smart:There are 27 business education partnerships throughout the district council areas.Dungannon and Cookstown work together very closely, andthere are two partnerships in Belfast. As part of ourapproach to inclusivity we have a special needs businesseducation partnership which brings together special schools with a broad range of companies acrossthe Province as one unit. As part of our attempts to promote corporate social responsibility we rely heavily on donors from companies to participate in our programmes.You are quite right to identify the two distinct areas of largeand small companies and the need for smaller companiesto recognise social responsibility and the economic benefits that can flow from it.
3218.
NIBEP works very closely with the Confederationof British Industry (CBI), the Institute of Directors andthe Northern Ireland Chamber of Commerce and Industry.They are all represented on our board as part of our attemptsto create a seamless garment of businessandeducation. More importantly, we work closely with LEDU in identifying 1,500 growth companies throughoutNorthernIreland. We intend to take forward two of the main areasof our work, work experience and teacher placements, sothat schoolchildren, teachers and students in further education colleges experience working in a small company with all its competing demands. We must work harderto encourage small and medium-sized enterprises. Largercompanies see their social responsibility by way of theEuropean Foundation for Quality Management (EFQM)excellence model with its points system. They also regardit as a very useful way of interacting with the community and of promoting their company and its products. We mustbe mindful of the extent to which we use a variety of companies.
3219.
Mr Carrick:What are the main lessons thatyou have learned since 1995and what obstacles have you experienced in trying to reach your declared objective?
3220.
Mr Smart:The grammar schools have stronglinks when getting donors to take part in mock interviews, providing work experience and opportunitiesfor teacher placements.
3221.
In more disadvantaged areas such as Dundonald or west Belfast there is a lack of role models. It is therefore incumbent upon us to ensure that there is a pool of donors to contribute to all programmes in a wide range of colleges and schools and across social divisions. It is important that we overcome that.
3222.
Our new business plan intends to establish a database of adequate resources to schools. More importantly, we intend to develop a mechanism to skew our resources towards those in TSN areas, to spend money on those young people most in need and to link companies with them.
3223.
Mr Dallat:You stress the need to promotegreater employer participation in the design and deliveryof programmes in higher and further education. Can this be made more effective?
3224.
Prof Norton:That is NIBEP's raison d'être. The organisation was reconfigured two years ago and it now acts as an umbrella to all provider bodies in thisarea, and a great deal of the work has been to effect that change. We have moved from several organisationsbeing effective despite the system to their working under an umbrella because of the system.
3225.
We had an interesting time getting charitable organisations to work towards a common purpose. We have engaged with Business in the Community, Young Enterprise, Industry Matters/Northern Ireland Science and Technology Regional Organisation (NISTRO) and Shell LiveWIRE to bring them under a commonumbrella for a common purpose. Our goal is to manifestthat in a practical way. It could be accessed on a web site - all the links would come from the same source. As things stand, several people might approach the same firm for help for a particular school; and several people might approach the same school. This can create confusion. One of the objectives is a one-stop shop to increase effectiveness.
3226.
Mr Dallat:You mentioned the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment (CCEA).
3227.
Prof Norton:Yes, it is represented on the board.
3228.
Mr Dallat:I must confess, as a former teacher, that much of what I taught was irrelevant. I know that the CCEA is now much more sharply focused than in the past. Schools have perhaps fewer opportunities to choose boards as schools in England or Wales which offer greater likelihood of simply passing exams with no reference to the content. Are you satisfied that CCEA now produces relevant syllabi, with particular focus on social education?
3229.
Prof Norton:Mr Smart may contradict me, but I am satisfied that things are moving in the right direction. However, role models are important. In communities which have suffered generations of unemployment or underemployment, lack of aspiration can militate against positive things happening in schools. The approach must be holistic, and the role of one agency cannot be isolated.
3230.
Mr Smart:I do not disagree with that. NIBEP has a very good relationship with the CCEA. We are represented on the 4-14 curriculum review, and I sit on the 16-19 curriculum review. We have acted as a conduit in bringing employers to those forums.
3231.
There is greater emphasis on teamwork, employability and communication skills in the 14-19 curriculumreview. There is also emphasis on being able to change the curriculum to allow those exercises to take place and to reward them. Active, creative and participative citizenship is also part of the new curriculum. That is an important aspect of our new dispensation, and it is one which we support.
3232.
Equally, the disapplication of the curriculum allows young people at least two days away from school. That is for those who choose a vocational route, and those who require it can be given more attention through smaller class sizes. NIBEP and the five education and library boards are engaged in a pilot project in which 120 young people in year 12 - fifth form in old money - will have the opportunity to work with a company to undertake part-NVQ qualifications. That will allow them to progress to modern apprenticeships when they leave school. The disapplication of the curriculum and the flexibility that will come with the new 14-19 curriculum will provide greater opportunities for meaningful work between employers and educationalists. That also means thatthere will be greater opportunities and clear progressionroutes for young people when they leave school.
3233.
Prof Norton:The disapplication of the curriculumhas so far been extremely successful, both in its outcome and also in motivating those involved. People who had got into a rut in school have blossomed in this scheme.
3234.
Mrs Nelis:I like the concept of NIBEP and I have attended some of its presentations. I worked on a similar project in 1977, which was in many ways ahead of its time, in which young people studied academic subjects in the morning and had careers classes in the afternoon, which was good. Those classes helped break down the cultural alienation that many young people experienced then. The education system designated them as failures, and the situation has not changed. Those people would never have contemplated going into business or have believed that they could be successful.
3235.
The concept works well, especially with the brighter grammar school pupils. How do you break down the cultural alienation of young people at secondary school? How will you encourage and attract them, especially if there is not full employment? In Derry, unemployment is about 14%. How do we get young people to recognise that their future may lie in developing a relationship with local businesses?
3236.
Prof Norton:The disapplication of the curriculumapplies to secondary schools. That concerns the people responsible for giving this information to schools. We are trying to address that stage of the process.
3237.
It is more important that NIPEB's remit extends from primary schools to further education. That brings entrepreneurship and awareness of the business world to primary schools. It is important to capture children's attention at a young age. There have been several initiatives through NIBEP and the various supporting provider bodies that directly motivate and encourage primary schools and industry to become involved. That is a good example of social responsibility. Those people will not be working in 10 years' time - or more. One way forward is to become involved with, contribute to and develop skills in schools and often to provide school equipment.
3238.
Mr Smart:Professor Norton is right to stress that, until 1995, NIBEP worked exclusively in post-primary schools. Our remit now extends into primary and further education. We hope to secure the resources to undertake the considerable work that we are being asked to do.
3239.
The new NIBEP must develop programmes that will intervene at various stages in the primary, post-primary and the further education sectors and which will demonstrate what business is about. Through our providers such as Young Enterprise, Industry Matters/ NISTRO people get an opportunity to experience entrepreneurship and enterprise. They also have an opportunity to get involved with functional activities by way of science and technology and to developnecessary skills such as teamworking and communication. We must inculcate this in the curriculum, reward and recognise it. NVQs provide an opportunity as do GNVQs in schools.
3240.
Our school to work programmes link young people with companies in which they spend time as part of their last two years at school. One in particular is linked to the training councils in which there are skills shortages. We try to link schools to workplaces in areas where there are jobs and particular skills shortages so that companies derive economic benefit while discharging a social responsibility. We must create the balance. We must also get employers to realise that they must be there all the time and not only when there are skills shortages. They must be there in good times and in bad. We are encouraged that more employers are doing that.
3241.
The recent Northern Ireland skills monitoring survey threw up a very interesting statistic. When asked "What do you do to overcome skills shortages?"30% of the 6,000 companies surveyed replied "Nothing",which is surprising. However, 12% of them said that they were making more contacts with schools and colleges to overcome their present skills shortages. Our goal is to get the 30% to follow the example of the 12%. That would solve many problems.
3242.
Prof Norton:NIBEP's work is to talk to schools,industry, training boards and education and library boards to get a common message across. It covers the earliest years of primary school, the grammar schools, final year students going to university and the Irish-medium schools in Northern Ireland. Its scope is too broad to be covered in a brief answer.
3243.
Mr Smart:NIBEP operates a work experience programme for 70 companies in greater Belfast. We provide 1,500 places every year for companies such as Bombardier Aerospace Short Brothers plc, the banks, the health trusts, the Housing Executive and Queen's University.
3244.
Last year NIBEP found work experience placements for 1,200 young people; placements which have been vetted for health and safety. We ensure that child protection standards are adhered to, that there is a health and safety policy and that the young people get a job description and have a mentor during their time with the company.
3245.
The programme is useful and should be developed. Our business plan states that we want to expand to 8,000 places by the third year. The programme is costly but cost-effective. It ensures that when young people go into industry they are not sent to a storeroom in the bowels of the company to sort nails and screws. We do not want to give young people that impression of industry. We want them to have an opportunity to use their skills or to realise that they need certain skills to succeed in the world of work. We would like to see that area grow, but as always money is a problem.
3246.
The Chairperson:May I clarify that there are 1,500 places in Belfast and that you want that number raised to 8,000 in Belfast.
3247.
Mr Smart:No, we want to extend the programmethoroughout Northern Ireland. We have 1,500 places and we normally get a match of about 1,200. For some people the timing is wrong; others agree to attend butdo not turn up. There is an attendance rate of about 80%.
3248.
Ms McWilliams:Others have said that there must be inward investment to attract companies and that our universities should have a role in identifying skills. Do you work with organisations on inward investment and do you liaise with the Industrial Development Board (IDB)? Does it ask about your progress on inward investment?
3249.
Is your relationship with the two Departmentsfruitful? There was an unsuccessful Executive bid. I raisethat because we recently met a deputation from Newry and Mourne District Council. One of the deputation said that he was happy with the teacher placement exercise and that he wanted to do more but was unable to. Is this a matter for employers or has it to do with funding?
3250.
Prof Norton:NIBEP is involved in determining skills and the economy needed for inward investors. That is different from the universities. The provision of courses in universities is now directly related to graduate manpower needs. That may be five to eight years ahead. When dealing with schools we must lookstrategically at the curriculum, the emphasis on differentsubjects, teacher placements and the industries of which careers teachers are aware. That is more broadly based and does not attract a particular inward investor to Northern Ireland, but illustrates the kind of people, workforce and place that Northern Ireland is.
3251.
That is crucial work, because prosperous economies will be increasingly driven by the quality oftheir workforce. The knowledge-based economy dependson what people know and not on the coal reserves that used to drive the economy. That level is much more strategic, and although the role is developing it is notyet clear. That is one of the many things that NIBEP mustdo, and that role has not been developed to our satisfaction.
3252.
Despite our chief executive's excellent work it has been difficult to secure the money necessary to deliver our programmes on time. However, we remain optimistic that we will get the necessary funding, but it has been a problem. Perhaps having to deal with two Departments has made matters more difficult.
3253.
I am sure that everyone who comes to the Committee talks about insufficient money and says that the solution is to throw more money at a problem.However, we know that money is limited. Nevertheless,creating a certain kind of economy and manpower does take investment, and we feel that that should be given priority.
3254.
Mr Smart:There are two questions about what type of business education policy there should be. NIBEP believes in encouraging companies to have a business education policy and to set out a template. Companies should take people on work experience, teachers on placement and offer work placements of,perhaps, one day a week over six weeks. They should alsoget involved in the development of curriculum-based materials to promote areas that have skills shortages. Companies wishing to sponsor a school or a classroom must demonstrate that they have a business education policy.
3255.
The company development programme is a good example. It provides money to companies which are growing in tradeable services and manufacturing to encourage good practice and training. As part of their Government grant, companies are asked to go for Investors In People (IIP) status and they are advised to use NVQs for training. The Department of Enterprise,Trade and Investment and the Assembly could encouragecompanies that are in the company development programme and which receive development grants from the Industrial Research and Technology Unit (IRTU) to ensure that they have links with schools and colleges. It makes sense to release some taxpayers' money to provide training in these companies. That should feed back into schools for their benefit; it should close the gap between education and industry.
3256.
Teacher placements will require teacher cover. The Scottish Executive provides £3·2 million for such placements, and that will give 10% of teachers in all sectors the opportunity to spend two weeks in industry over the next three years. We estimate that there are about 100-200 one-week placements for Northern Ireland's 21,000 teachers. Of course, bringing lecturers into industry is very different, and we have a long way to rectify that. We must give school principals the security of knowing that if a teacher is on placement there will be someone to cover the classes. That poses financial problems.
3257.
Mrs Carson:A letter in your submission sets out NIBEP's remit in 1999. One of the items included in it is the need to foster the development of a bespoke accredited training course for careers teachers. What progress have you made? You said that 70 companies have 1,200 young people on work experience. How many of them have gone into full-time employment in the six years that NIBEP has been in operation?
3258.
Prof Norton:We do not have detailed statistics on that. However, programmes that were sampled weresuccessful. The relevance of work experience to permanent employment is difficult to judge. Programmesthat have encouraged people to go into engineering careers have been successful - 90% take-up is typical. However, we do not have statistics for all, as they are not tracked in that way.
3259.
Mrs Carson:It would be interesting to know. Some students regard placements as a day away from academic work. Do you have a bespoke accredited training course for careers teachers?
3260.
Prof Norton:Placements are not a day out.
3261.
Mrs Carson:I did not say that. I said that some young people regard them as such. I do not want a placement for the sake of it. A placement should fulfil its original purpose.
3262.
Mr Smart:At our pilot project in Craigavon youngpeople must attend school for three days; they spend a day at a further education college and a day with their employer. There is a similar scheme in the north-west.
3263.
If students do not attend school on Monday and Tuesday, they do not go to school on Wednesday orspend Thursday in the college or Friday with an employer.The students have a responsibility to ensure that they attend school, as many of them have not been doing so. They are encouraged to come to school for the three days to study the normal curriculum; they then attend the further education college and spend the last day on work placement. There is an 80%-90% improvement in attendance of the young people who participate in the scheme.
3264.
We are moving from the perception that a placement is a day away from school. Those young people now realise that they must go to school for the first three days of the week in order to spend the other two days at college and with the employer. It is important that they know that they cannot avoid school and then go to work. We want young people to make the link between work and school.
3265.
I am happy to report that we have agreed a new continuous professional development programme with the University of Ulster to commence in September. It is supported by the Belfast Education and Library Board and by the western and southern education and library boards. A certificate course for teachers will be provided, with the opportunity to move on to diploma and Master's courses.
3266.
NIBEP will provide economic developmentmodules for it, but it will also place unattached teacherswho are on the in-service course with companies of their choice or in their sectoral area. NIBEP has also agreed to pay for the teacher cover. That may be premature, but the commitment has been given. That will not happen until year two.
3267.
More importantly, the north eastern and south eastern boards are engaged in a programme at Queen's University. It does not have a work placement for teachers, but NIBEP has agreed to fund teacher cover if such placements are introduced.
3268.
We are well on the way to addressing bespoke training for careers teachers. However, I want to see it go beyond that to involve all teachers. Careers teachersalone cannot be expected to inform pupils about opportunities. Science, engineering, maths and geographyteachers must be made aware of the rapid changes in industry.
3269.
Prof Norton:Teachers cannot go into industry or commerce peripatetically; they must develop anunderstanding of those industries. That involves commitment from the industries. It will excite the interest ofthose involved. Mindlessly sorting screws in a forgottenstoreroom is not a very interesting or positive experience.
3270.
It is important that teachers get a profound insight into what a sector does and that children find something which engages them intellectually.
3271.
Mrs Carson:How will you get the money?
3272.
Mr Smart:The Executive have competingpriorities. However, if we are to address skills shortages,the long-term interests of the economy and areas of social division, and if we are to create a society that provides equal opportunity for all, the Executive must recognise their responsibility. The Executive must also recognise that companies contribute a great deal of support in kind to business education, and if we are to take business education partnerships seriously we must provide the funding. We must find the money despite competition for resources; we must argue the case for funding as others do. Our children are our future, and on the island of Ireland young people are the majority. We must provide opportunities for their future.
3273.
Mr Beggs:NIBEP speaks of encouraging participation in education, particularly among women. Since 58% of students in further and higher education are women why must the number of female students increase? Male, working-class Protestants are the mostunder-represented group in higher and further education.How have you encouraged that group to participate in education?
3274.
According to your submission your business plan has not been fully financed. What funding did you receive last year and how much have you been given this year? What areas are missing out? You spokeabout your 27 partnerships, and we got positive feedbackfrom district councillors in Newry. Can you give me an update on what you are doing in Larne, Carrick and Newtownabbey? You are not selling yourselves well enough in those areas. No one speaks about what you do, and I have not seen anything in the local press about you. You must provide additional information, but I am happy to receive that later.
3275.
Prof Norton:There is a disproportionately low participation of inner-city Protestant men in higher education and in some areas of further education. NIBEP has been developing partnerships through its provider bodies. For example, there is a partnership between the Boys' Model School in Belfast, the East Antrim Institute of Further and Higher Education and the University of Ulster. That partnership is aimed in particular at that under-represented group; it points out the opportunities and the routes through further education to higher education; and it has links to major local employers. It is targeted at a specific group and is grounded in informing the pupils, the schools and their parents. Interestingly, parents are strongly engaged in the initiative - they have great aspirations for their children.
3276.
We foster very specifically targeted initiatives with local authorities, schools and industry; that is one of the strengths of having the local business education partnership (BEP) network. That initiative involved a Newtownabbey business education partnership, and although it might not have received much publicity itswork is continuing. There is a similar initiative in Larnewith FG Wilson (Engineering) Ltd. Practical steps are being taken and that information might address your concerns. It is important that action is focused on certain areas.
3277.
Mr Smart:Our mentoring programme, which we are piloting in two schools in north Belfast, is another example of encouraging young people to go to university. We are in partnership with Deloitte & Touche, which provides six consultants. They act as mentors to young people who are on the cusp of getting five poor GCSEs or five good GCSEs or who are on the cusp of getting two or three mediocre A levels rather than three good A levels, which would allow them to go to university. We are happy to report that Deloitte & Touche will double the number of consultants and that Belfast City Council will provide10 additional people. We hope to expand the programme.These role models go into schools to assist young people with their future life choices and their exams.
3278.
This year we put in an ambitious and challengingbusiness plan for finances. We wanted to expand our activity significantly and we sought an additional £900,000 to spend on programmes for thisyear. To date, £200,000 has been spent on programmes in schoolsthrough Industry Matters/NISTRO. We have an additional£300,000, so we have a shortfall of roughly £600,000 for our activities. As we have a remit letterfrom two Departments asking us to set up the organisationand to prepare a business plan for the next three years, weare disappointed. However, we are working closely withboth Ministers and with officials to look at other ways of securing this funding for years two and three of the plan.
3279.
Prof Norton:It is correct that there is strong participation of women in higher and further education. Unfortunately, - and this is a broad generalisation because the detail is more complicated - women's participation is not as strong in the vocational higher education that underpins a knowledge-based economy. That is a problem. Women may have problems in up-skilling when they return to work after raising a family. There are matters in women's education that must be addressed, although their priority is at issue.
3280.
Mr Beggs:Do you accept that addressing the under-representation of working-class Protestant men in further education should be a priority? What are you doing to redress that?
3281.
Prof Norton:The demographic evidence supportsthat. Targeting social need is part of NIBEP's strategy to address that problem across communities.
3282.
Mr Beggs:You said that you received an additional £300,000 and not the £900,000 that you would have liked. Therefore your funding has not been cut, but it has not been expanded to the preferred extent, is that correct?
3283.
Mr Smart:We now deal with the 1,000 schools in the primary sector for the first time; we also have 17 colleges in the further education sector. Our remit has extended considerably across all aspects of education, but we have only managed to source an additional £300,000. This will not allow us to carry out our plan in full or address many of the issues that you raise in your questions.
3284.
Prof Norton:We must benchmark the resourcesfor this area to achieve a knowledge-based economy in future. We can measure our shortfall against Scotland, which has taken a strong lead in producing an entrepreneurial economy. We should measure our resources against the Scots' to get an idea of how much we need in order to deliver our programme successfully.
3285.
The Chairperson:Do the Scottish Executive spend more on business and education partnerships?
3286.
Mr Smart:Teacher placements at £3·2 million are a good benchmark.
3287.
Mr Beggs:Can you make a comparison with England and Wales as well? After all, Scotland gets much more money to spend on education.
3288.
Prof Norton:Perhaps that is the nature of policydecisions which you must advise on.
3289.
Mr Beggs:Have you a benchmark with Englandand Wales? How do you make a comparison?
3290.
Mr Smart:The education business partnerships in England are being completely restructured. The local enterprise companies (LECs) and the training and enterprise councils (TECs) have been disbanded and are being reorganised. About £25 million is available for business education partnerships alone, aside from the mainstream programmes of teacher placement and other activity.
3291.
We have strong links with Scotland and have been to see the work being done there. Scotland is also reorganising. The 26 education business partnerships in Scotland are being brought together with the Careers Service and Scottish Enterprise to establish a model similar to ours, which they will deliver. They have about £5 million for business education partnerships, aside from the £3·2 million for teacher placements. We can get the figures for you.
3292.
We have three business education partnerships in Larne, Carrick and Newtownabbey. Two are quite vibrant; we must work on the other one. We also have a part-time worker. Newtownabbey District Council has been very forthcoming and has provided £10,000 for activities in local schools. We spend a great deal oftime and effort working with the enterprise agencies andeconomic development officers to get meagre resourcesfrom councils for this activity. It is a dreadful waste of our resources continually having to go round the 26 district councils seeking £2,000 here or £3,000 there.The effort sometimes outweighs the money that we get.
3293.
The Chairperson:You highlighted the shortfall inGovernment spending on business education partnerships.Are businesses in the private sector philanthropic? I have just returned from the USA where I looked at economicand educational development. I got the impression thatthe USA's big companies are much more philanthropic.Is it because of the tax system, because Government spending is lower or it is due to American culture?
3294.
Prof Norton:All those reasons are part of the explanation. There are fiscal incentives, but traditionand social recognition also play a role. Endowments, for example, are part of the culture. It is a different situationand comparisons are not useful. The largest firms in Northern Ireland have given substantial commitments to strategic initiatives which bear their name.
3295.
Unfortunately - or perhaps fortunately - smalland medium-sized enterprises in Northern Ireland do not have the wherewithal to do that. The number of local companies which can make such financial commitments is limited. Training boards andtraining institutions bringing smaller companies togetheris a recent welcome development. NIBEP encourages this and we hope to address the small and medium-sized enterprises in the future.
3296.
The Chairperson:Your presentation has been extremely helpful. The Committee recognises the importance of your work and wishes you well in the future. Thank you.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
Thursday 21 June 2001
Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Mr Hay
Mr R Hutchinson
Mrs Nelis
Witnesses:
Dr R Davison)Department of Higher and FurtherMrs C Bell)Education, Training and Employment
3297.
The Chairperson:On behalf of the Committee I welcome Dr Robson Davison, deputy secretary in theDepartment, and Mrs Catherine Bell, assistant secretaryin Further Education and Learning Policy Division. Thankyou for the written brief. Following your presentation the Committee members will ask you some questions.
3298.
Mrs C Bell:There were significant changes in the further education sector during the 1990s. The number of colleges was reduced from 26 to 17, and a major change came about in 1998 when the colleges moved from the control of the education and libraryboards and became incorporated, responsible to governingbodies. That was a significant change, with governors having control of the assets, staffing and budgets. Theremainder of the United Kingdom achieved incorporatedstatus almost five years previously.
3299.
There are about 24,000 full-time students in further education, the majority of whom are 16- to 19-year-olds, and there are around 65,000 part-time students, the majority of whom are aged over 19 years. Since 1997-98 there has been an increase of about 18% inmature students, and we would like to see a further increasein part-time students.
3300.
The comprehensive spending review in 1998 brought an increase in resources of about 52% from the 1997-98 budget to around £138million in 2000-01.
3301.
The strategic objectives for the further educationsector can be set out in three broad areas - supporting the economy, widening access and increasing participation, and improving quality and raising standards.
3302.
With regard to supporting the economy, the strategic objectives came from the Further Education (NorthernIreland) Order 1997 and were reinforced inthe 'Lifelong Learning' document in 1999 and 'Strategy2010', and supported more recently in the Programmefor Government. In the supporting the economy objectivewe have focused the colleges on six priority skill areas - construction, computing, hospitality and catering, manufacturing engineering, electronics, and software engineering. We have been involved in developing centres of excellence in these six priority skill areas and have put considerable resources into that. We havefunded colleges for restructuring so that their curriculumand staffing meet the needs of the economy. We have also funded them for a skills initiative which not only supports the economy but also widens access to people who previously would not have benefited from further education. The fund is focused on vocational areas at level two and level three.
3303.
We are currently working on an initiative aimed at encouraging colleges to work with and support smalland medium-sized enterprises; this is a major priority. Inthe past three years we have invested around £10millionin an information communication technology (ICT) strategy, not only to ensure that we have the correct infrastructure, with every college having one industry-standard PC to five full-time equivalent students, but alsoto ensure that they are connected to the SuperJANET, which is the joint academic network, so that students can benefit from speed and access to the Internet.
3304.
Part of the strategy has been to ensure that lecturers can use ICT in teaching and learning. However,it is not just for lecturers to develop word processing and database skills but for them to use that in theclassroom. The final part of the ICT strategy is to ensurethat there are sufficient curriculum materials.
3305.
The last area I want to mention under supporting the economy is the lecturers into industry initiative. In the past three years we have invested around £300,000 each year to give lecturers up to 12weeks in industry. We focused on engineering, hospitality and catering.Last year we extended this also to software engineering, and this year we will also include construction. Since 1998 there has been a 45% increase in enrolments in the six priority skill areas, which is good news for supporting the economy.
3306.
With regard to widening access, this is as importantas supporting the economy. We are currently developinga strategy for basic skills because we want to ensure that all people benefit from the job opportunities that a knowledge-based economy may bring, and we want toensure that people can enhance the quality of their lives.
3307.
We have also introduced a partnership fund so that colleges are encouraged to work alongside the community, district councils, chambers of commerce, employers, schools and training organisations in their areas. Funding is provided to build up innovative waysto reach out to people who have not previously benefitedfrom education. We have increased the funding, and we hope to increase it further for disabled access so that peoplewith disabilities can also benefit from education.
3308.
The big factors in improving quality and raising standards have been the introduction and extension of individualised student learning agreements. We require colleges to develop an individual contract between students and their course tutor. The aim is to match their programme of study to their abilities and intereststo achieve the best possible outcome. We also supportedthe introduction of Curriculum 2000 so that young people can not only take broad, balanced programmes but they can also gain credit for individual units. Wesupport the Northern Ireland Credit Accumulation TransferSystem (NICATS) so that people will be rewarded for what they study, not just for completion of a course.
3309.
You have heard evidence from the Education and Training Inspectorate about the self-evaluation process. We have been encouraging that process so that colleges take responsibility for their own quality, using indicators that are standard across the sector.
3310.
Finally, where do we want to see the further education sector going, and how have we been pushing it along? We have come a long way in three years. We must keep it in perspective. The incorporated bodies have only existed for three years. They are much more focused on supporting the economy, reaching out and widening access on the social inclusion agenda and improving quality. We see the further education sectoras a regional economic driver which serves the community- particularly small and medium-sized enterprises - and contributes to the social inclusion agenda through widening participation. Last but not least, we see it making efficient and effective use of resources.
3311.
Mr Carrick:You mentioned the effective use of resources and a 52% increase in funding in 1998, which was presumably linked to the new structures. How much of that increased funding went towards the administration of the 17 different colleges, as opposed to delivery of the service to young people? I want to evaluate decentralisation from the aspect of providingvalue for money. How successful has the local management approach to further education colleges been? Have areas been identified where centralised control would be more cost effective and of greater benefit to students? When will the results of the three years of monitoring and evaluation be available?
3312.
Mrs C Bell:When the Department is allocatingthe budget, some of it is top sliced for earmarked funds.Over the past few years we have earmarked a substantialamount of money. We see that as the way by which the Department can determine where the college should go - for example, we earmarked money for the centres of excellence, the access initiative, the partnership funds and the ICT strategy. We take a significant amount fromthe budget and put it into funds that direct the college in certain ways.
3313.
The recurrent budget is based on the number of students at the college. This is worked out on the basis of a student-powered unit of resource, which is the number of students in the initial recruitment phase, thelearning phase and from outcome. We give the colleges an amount of money for recruitment, the learning phaseand, finally, the outcome phase. There are weightings as well, according to vocational areas, social need or whether it is basic education provision, and so on, but we have control of the funding.
3314.
You also asked when we would be carrying out an evaluation of the comprehensive spending review that generated the money in 1998-99. We are about to start the evaluation of the various aspects of the three strategic objectives. We will look at how successful colleges have been in supporting the economy, and ifthe resources which we put into the centres of excellencehas been value for money. We will do that through the inspectorate and also through working with the employers who were involved initially in determiningthe centres of excellence. We will do a similar evaluationon the ICT strategy and the various other strategies. In the next 12 months we will have evaluated almost all of the strategies that we have put in place.
3315.
Dr Davison:You also asked about the amount of the increased funding that has gone to administration. We fund the colleges by block grant, and it would be a matter for each individual college to determine, within the context of the block grant, how it distributes that funding. We could not put a universal figure on what percentage has gone to administration. We are conscious that there has been an increase in administration because colleges' governing bodies are responsible for a range of functions for which they were not responsible in the past. The education and library boards would have carried that through prior to incorporation, but even then on a limited basis. We cannot put a figure on it, but our guess would be that the increased amount for administration has not been excessive. It has matched the degree of the increase of responsibility to the colleges.
3316.
On centralised control, which is an interesting question, Mrs Bell mentioned the earmarked funds. We have particular strategic objectives, and we have used earmarked funds to target very closely those specificobjectives. Where we have determined that there is a need for a more centralised view, we have used a fundinglever as a means of getting what the Department requires.
3317.
Mr Carrick:Will the evaluation address thecost effectiveness of having 17 individual administrativecost centres and the possibility of reducing them in number? I know this is getting back to the old system again, but we would like to know the answer.
3318.
Dr Davison:We monitor very closely the generalcosts and the funding flows across the sector. We have no specific intention of addressing that particular issue at this time. This depends on where you are coming from - if it is not 17, is it five, or eight, or nine, or ten? We are convinced that the range of functions must be covered. Perhaps you might want that range of functions covered in a different way, but at the moment we monitor on an individual college basis.
3319.
Mrs C Bell:We have been encouraging collegesto collaborate and make best use of resources, which is why we have a number of funds. College lecturers and resources can be used across colleges so that they can focus on a particular vocational area where collegeshave expertise. We have been using them for collaborationand partnerships.
3320.
Mr Carrick:"Collaboration" is a key word.
3321.
Mrs Carson:In many of our inquiry sessions we have heard a lot of criticism from industry about the lack of careers advice. What do you think could be done to improve relationships with the Training and Employment Agency, different colleges and careers teachers in schools giving careers advice? We have had criticism from industry that they are not getting young people prepared for industry. You have said a greatdeal about colleges doing what they want in their courses,and that is fine: they might be excellent courses, but are they relevant to industry and its needs?
3322.
Last week we had visitors from Wales. They cameup with Careers Wales, and they have a one-stop shop. Have you considered anything like that in Northern Ireland?
3323.
Mrs C Bell:The wider careers provision is not my remit: I do not have responsibility for careers within the Department. We have been working with the further education colleges and pushing them in the direction of the individualised student learning agreement, so that when a student comes through the door there is time spent with that student, not just identifying interests and needs, but also trying to openup a range of career opportunities. That learning agreementis monitored throughout the student's programme in the college.
3324.
Before that, another area which we believe that colleges should be looking at - and some of them aremore successful than others - is working in conjunctionwith the schools. There has been some flexibility in the curriculum at Key Stage4, and students aged 14 and 15 - the old fourth form and fifth form - are going into colleges and doing vocational programmes and opening their minds to the range of vocational programmes. The fear that we have, and something that we would like to see addressed - and we think there is great potential to address - is that at present the focus at Key Stage 4 is on young people going to college who are either disaffected with an academic curriculum, demotivated or young people who are not of high academic ability. We would like to see an opportunity for the more able young people to see the range of careers available to them by having some of their curriculum within the further education sector,possibly doing a few units of IT, engineering, construction, in any of the six priority areas.
3325.
We have focused the colleges on the big priority areas and have put considerable resources into these. We are looking at the 16 to 19curriculum in the Department of Higher and Further Education, Trainingand Employment to see what employers expect of youngpeople when they finish their programme in a college. It is not just vocational skills, it is the broader skills ofworking as part of a team: being entrepreneurial; havinggood communication skills; being able to use numbers effectively; and using ICT. We are working at different levels, but there is a broader issue in relation to careers that needs to be addressed. The review of careers has just finished.
3326.
Dr Davison:The relevance of provision to industry is a big issue. Ahead of the rest of the UnitedKingdom, we have identified, through the skills initiative, six areas that the Training and Employment Agency says are relevant to economic growth. Those areas are ICT; electronics; software engineering; construction;tourism and hospitality; and the manufacturing industry. We have put a skills initiative in place as an incentive to the colleges to recruit into those areas that are of relevance to the local economy. That incentive funding has generated a considerable increase in enrolments in those areas.
3327.
We have supported that by taking a policy line that tries to identify centres of excellence across the sector. The first time that we employed this policy we set the hurdle very high, and we ended up with six colleges identified as centres of excellence in the key skill areas. In addition to operating on the individual student front, we operate at institution level in order to make sure that enrolments are related to the needs that local industry and institutions perceive. That is the direction in which we are attempting to move policy.
3328.
Mrs Carson:I cannot remember the name of the college or the industry that was concerned, but oneset of witnesses said that the industrialists, having receiveda poor reply from the college, had set up their own programme. The lecturers thought that they would not be able to deliver results in that area, but when theprogramme was set up, with the industry as the impetus,they had a 100% success rate. There is a lot to learn from what the industrialists need.
3329.
Mrs C Bell:That is why we have been so pleased with the lecturers into industry initiative. Not only has it enhanced the skills of the lecturers and brought them up to date, but it has also developed strong relationships between employers and colleges. The employers are now saying to us that they would like to get involved in working in the college, and we are currently looking at ways to broker that.
3330.
Dr Davison:In the context of the economic relevance of further education provision, which is one of our strategic objectives, we see two continua at work. One continuum is at institutional level. Some institutions have bought into the policy completely and see that their focus should be on serving local economicneeds; some institutions, further down the continuum, have not reached that stage yet but are on their way there. And there are some that are a bit further down the continuum still - I will not name names.
3331.
Sometimes you can spot the continuum even within a college. Some schools or departments in thesame college will be very clued in to the local industrial or business picture while some are on their way there or only just getting things off the ground. There is a process at work here whereby the sector engages ever more with local business and industry. At our end, we are trying to identify what other mechanisms are required in order to apply the system across the boardand get everybody working at the same level. However,the process will take time.
3332.
Mrs C Bell:We must remember that the processinvolves enabling young people, particularly people aged 16 to 19, to cope with life as well as the demands of industry so that, apart from anything else, they are well prepared to be good citizens.
3333.
The Chairperson:I have five names on the list of people who wish to ask questions, and we only have about 20 minutes of this session left. Could Members therefore keep their questions as concise as possible.
3334.
Mr Hay:I would like to return to a matter that has been a contentious point with the Committee for a while - the difficulty of trying to extract information from 17 different colleges. All give the information in different formats - for example, it is difficult to get information from some colleges concerning those full-time, part-time or non-educational staff who are on sickleave. In further and higher education colleges there does not seem to be a streamlining of this information. Most people see colleges - whether we like it or not - as public bodies accountable to Government.
3335.
As a Committee, we find it increasingly difficultto get information, on whatever subject. That is somethingthat the Department and the Assembly need to get a handle on. It must be streamlined across the Province.There seemed to be a difficulty in getting the informationthat we asked for on a number of issues, such as on the inquiry into education and training for industry. Whatare your thoughts on trying to develop a situation wherethat information should be to hand, whether it relates to accountancy, financial matters, whatever it is? It is currently not there.
3336.
Mrs C Bell:With regard to collecting information, we have been working with the colleges to standardise the Department's and the inspectorate's requirementsfor information from colleges. Over many years, informationhas been produced in one format for use in the college, the Department asks for financial or statisticalinformation, and the inspectorate also asks for informationabout recruitment, retention and performance.
3337.
We had a small working group whereby all parties identified what their needs were. It took a long time to get down to looking at what we all need - what the Department needs for funding and accountability and what the inspectorate needs for looking at the efficiency and the quality of the provision. We also had to consider the information the institutes need to monitor and improve the performance of their organisation. We have now established the requirements, but it has to be owned by the sector. A business case has been put together that is about to go to the Department of Finance and Personnel because we need a management information system that is robust across the sector, and this will be incredibly difficult. A college is a complexorganisation; there are courses that last 10 weeks, somewhich last the whole year and others that cover two years.
3338.
We are also in the process, with NICATS, of unitising the curriculum. We must ensure that whatever system we set up to collect the information is able to accommodate the changes that are in train. I agree that it is difficult at times to get information in a standard form across the sector. We are currently working with them on that.
3339.
Mr Beggs:I welcome the fact that you are moving toward a standardised information system. The question that arises is why was it not there from the start? It is an obvious need. What is the function of the Department having created these courses if it did not exist from the start? I hope that it is brought together urgently, because I perceive an urgent need for it.
3340.
Mrs Bell:We are currently working on it.
3341.
Dr Davison:The Further Education (Northern Ireland) Order 1997 states that we have the powers toseek information, and we get information in standardisedforms in the areas that we originally identified as necessary. You are proposing to extend the range of information that we get.
3342.
Mr Hay:I would have thought that any college could straightforwardly tell you, for example, how many full-time and part-time staff are on sick leave. We cannot even get that information.
3343.
Dr Davison:I am very disappointed about that. Under the Order, colleges are responsible for their own staff, and they absolutely ought to know. If the issue is extending and standardising the information, the powersare there to enable us to do that.
3344.
Mr Beggs:Indeed, the Committee could get that information if it wanted.
3345.
Northern Ireland has some of the lowest levels of literacy in Western countries. As regards widening access and increasing participation, how will the Department ensure that it will apply to all areas? My own constituency, for example, has no permanent college, although there is a temporary site in Larne. Some additional education funds, through Proteus (NI) Ltdand the Education Guidance Service for Adults (EGSA),have been particularly targeted at drawing people into education through the community sector, but that does not put money in on the ground. How is the Department proactively assisting the identification of areas of deprivation, where such educational need arises? How will it assist people to get into education, which is the route out of some of the difficulties?
3346.
Mrs C Bell:The basic skills unit has advised the Minister on standards, curriculum, tests and qualifications for teachers and tutors. The Department is currently preparing the draft strategy, and the last thing that we need is to write a strategy that targets onlya small percentage of the population. We must ensure that all people benefit from the basic skills strategy.
3347.
The overarching aim will be to ensure that all ofour people have the skills in communication, applicationof numbers and information technology to avail of the new jobs that will come. It should also enhance their quality of life, because improving basic skills should not just be for functional purposes.
3348.
The Department's approach will target not just literacy and numeracy because few people will buy into that. However, we must ensure that no matter what programmes are put in place - whether they are New Deal, Jobskills, through a further education college or through a statutory or non-statutory body - there is a component to take account of basic skills. It starts at the very beginning by looking at the early screening so that there is some indication and proper diagnosis of people's weaknesses to develop a programme built on their interests or vocational needs.
3349.
One of the biggest shocks from the international adult literacy survey was the high percentage of peoplewith basic skills deficiencies who are actually employed.We must therefore work with the unions and employers.We have already started that and asked the basic skills unitto look at innovative approaches to delivering basic skillsin the workplace and the community and to funding the programmes. The colleges, of course, are central to this.
3350.
Mr Beggs:How are you proactively chasing areas where there has been no previous expenditure inbasic education? How are you proactively helping localcommunities that are only establishing structures?
3351.
Dr Davison:The strategy that we are preparing for adult basic education will try to ensure that we have full coverage. The main route will be through a combination of statutory and non-statutory provision where we try to link the two closely together. A key part of that will be what comes from the community.
3352.
The Department can try to work the differentelements into place, but the community must be willingto engage with it and to ensure that the various community elements are known and can be addressed. Sitting in Adelaide House, it is not easy to know what they are, and who in the community can fulfil the appropriate roles. In working through the strategy we will want to get wide coverage. The figures show that this is a very important issue.
3353.
Mr Dallat:We will try not to shoot the messengers because I have high regard for both of you. There was a meal made of the fact that several of the colleges do not know where their staff are, and that worries me. If they do not know where the staff are, what do they know about the pupils? What do they know about the people who are not the pupils and should be the pupils?
3354.
Your bid to tackle literacy and numeracy was not granted in full. In view of the statistics now available, surely there is an urgent need to increase that. While it may be true that somebody does not buy into literacy and numeracy alone, I know of one company that would be very happy if their employees could add up to nine. I can see you are working with the colleges, coercing them, but is it not time to reel them in and to say to them "There has been a Dark Ageduring direct rule when nobody asked serious questions about what you were doing, but the whole economy has changed now, and we are near full employment. We have 250,000 people with serious learning difficulties. You can no longer sit on the other side of the table and talk at us because we are in the driving seat - we are the bosses."? Every Department of the Assembly is screaming from the rooftops about the problems. Is it not time to take off the kid gloves?
3355.
I must balance that by saying that over the years, when we had a very divisive education system, the technical schools have been a safety net for manyworking-class people, and I would never take that awayfrom them. That is why I feel particularly emotional that through incorporation and the independence that they developed, they abused that and ignored the outside world. I know of instances where they would not send courses out to the community to teach women basic skills. I get the impression that you are still having difficulty persuading these people that that world has gone past, that it failed us.
3356.
Mrs C Bell:I would not say that we are having difficulty. The Lifelong Learning strategy set a reallyclear direction for the colleges for the first time. Certainlywhen it was written there were two criticisms. Employers said it was a community document and the community said it was too strongly focused on the economy. Therefore I think we got it right because it isincumbent on our colleges to support both. In stretchingout to the community, the challenge for the college, and for us, is to ensure that colleges meet this need. It is not just to meet the basic skills need. They will be able to do that, but the big challenge will be to encourage people to progress up the ladder. When we look at community provision outside of the colleges, we find that people are willing to engage initially in learning but few are prepared to go up to level one, two or three - that is the challenge. Rather than talk about a deficit model of 260,000 adults with poor literacy and numeracy skills, which we will have to address, the basic skills strategy is ensuring that we all have ourweaknesses addressed through whatever means available.It also takes account of the fact that these skills will always increaseas the demands from industry and life increase.
3357.
Part of the difficulty in our colleges has been that basic skills have always had low status. We are now determined to change that, to give it a status so that it is not just going to be the higher education courses that colleges aspire to teach but also to make provision right across the board.
3358.
Mrs Nelis:I want to ask about the collaboration fund. It seems that that is a model to aspire to for the future. I see that you intend to allocate £600,000 over two years to strengthen the concept of partnerships involving the colleges and the major employers, the district councils and the chambers of commerce. Those are certainly the types of partnerships that we want to see established to drive up the demand for local learning and to provide the infrastructure for small and medium-sized enterprises. If you divide the allocation among the 17 colleges, it works out at roughly £30,000 per college. It seems that the programme is very ambitious but that it is not being resourced properly. Perhaps you need to look at that aspect, because the project has great potential.
3359.
How do you intend to evaluate the initiative? You have mentioned some skills, but other skills could be added with the help of the collaboration fund. I am thinking of civic skills.
3360.
Mrs C Bell:The collaboration fund was intendedto encourage collaboration, but the students involved are funded as well. The bodies are funded to make the links, but they also get funding for the student places that are generated. The fund was not intended just to forge partnerships with employers. It was a local fund to help to engage chambers of commerce and localcouncils. There are other funds, such as the access initiative,through which we have given colleges money to look at innovative ways of drawing people into learning.
3361.
You asked about evaluation. We have alreadystarted to evaluate the fund. Over the last 18 months, theinspectorate has been working in a number of colleges to look at how they have been making links. Some colleges used the fund to focus on makingpartnerships with employers.Others looked at developing partnershipswith community groups. This year all of them are looking at partnerships in the broader sense, which is what we intend them to do. The collaboration fund and the access initiative have both been successful in forging links among the colleges, the community and local businesses.
3362.
Mr Byrne:The common thread seems to be the lack of a common set of procedures and practices for the further education colleges. The material supplied is very revealing, particularly in respect of the financial performance of colleges. The question must be why some colleges vary so much from the norm. What does the Department do in relation to asking a college to restructure itself to become more financially viable?
3363.
There is a great absence of statistical information on outcomes of students and trainees. We need performance indicators that show clear outcomes. A college might be successful in recruiting 1,000 students to get its full-time equivalent numbers right. However, by the end of the year only 600 might still be there. The financial position will look very good, but there is a terrible leakage in the numbers. I would like some statistics on that.
3364.
There is another question that the Department must address. Does it want further education colleges to be community colleges, higher education colleges or colleges with a broad mix of training, basic education and professional education? The latter category would include, for example, the Institute of Management and Association of Accounting Technicians courses.
3365.
Does the Department intend to take a common approach to making colleges publicly accountable, because there is a growing need for that? Regardless of how good college governors are they do not see the full picture. There is a need for stronger public accountability by professionals.
3366.
Dr Davison:Colleges are open to inspection by the Education and Training Inspectorate in everythingthat they do. Under the Order the inspectorate can carryout efficiency reviews on any college that is experiencingdifficulties. The colleges are accountable to the Department, and the Department monitors their finances on a regular basis. The Department works with colleges to help them overcome their difficulties. That has been done with some colleges since incorporation occurred. The Department brought in support and advice for the colleges and helped them to deal with their difficulties, but ultimately the college and the governing body own the issue and have to deal with it.
3367.
Therefore the colleges are publicly accountableand the Department works with those that are experiencingdifficulties. From material that Mr Byrne has sought previously I know that he is aware of at least one of those cases where the Department has done that. Therefore colleges are publicly accountable.
3368.
Mrs C Bell:With regard to key performance indicators, the Department publishes enrolments and success rates. Up until now retention numbers have not been published, and this year there is work going on to look at retention. The inspectorate always looked at retention. It has three key indicators - enrolment, retention and success. That is the benchmark. In many instances, particularly in further education colleges - and it is also true of higher education - people do not finish within the two years or one year of the allottedprogramme. Depending on their personal circ*mstancesthey may take three years.
3369.
There needs to be sophisticated measures to lookat retention. However, the Department needs to have indicators of enrolments, retention and success. TheDepartment receives information from the inspectorate.The inspectorate publishes the information with the inspection reports, but it is hoped that the Department will soon be able to report on the performances of all 17 colleges.
3370.
Dr Davison:We already publish the financial information to the 17 colleges. A previous Minister introduced school league tables but decided not to take that route with further education. Given the complexity of that sector compared to schools, he did not think that it would be helpful.
3371.
Mr Byrne asked about the direction in which we are going. There have been historical differences in the way things have developed. In England there are sixth-form colleges, general further education collegesand adult education colleges. Various kinds of provisionmake up further education. In the Republic of Ireland in the late 1980s the further education sector was transformed into a higher education sector with therebadging of institutes of technology. Vocational collegeswere developed, and now there is an emerging set ofwhat we would recognise as further education provision. So they have gone down a different route.
3372.
Northern Ireland has chosen the route of general further education colleges, and in the 1990s we added on to that some higher education provision to try to widen access to higher education to a wider range of people across the Province.
3373.
So that is the route we have gone down. Given the scale of Northern Ireland and the resources involved,would we want to disentangle that and set up separate institutions? It is an interesting question which could lead to a debate. These are very big questions.
3374.
The Chairperson:My first question picks up on a point Mr Byrne made. We have tried to examine the 1999-2000 accounts as far as possible without anaccountancy background. They are difficult to interpret,so we would be grateful for guidance from the Departmenton a number of cases, but on two in particular. I understand that the aim is to have a current ratio of 1·5:1 to 2·5: 1. Using the current ratios, Castlereagh has for two years been below that target range, so perhaps that raises issues. Conversely, Newry and Armagh have been well above the 2·5:1 ratio. Are there special circ*mstances in both cases?
3375.
The other question has come up repeatedly in discussion. This Committee has sought, with difficulty, to acquire from the 17 colleges consistent details on staffing turnover, absenteeism, sick leave, suspension and so forth. As far as you can judge, is your overall impression that staff morale in further education is satisfactory? What would be the Department's feeling about the relevant pay level for further education lecturers? The Minister of Finance referred in his pre-Budget statement to the likelihood of an increase that was higher than that previously expected.
3376.
Dr Davison:Concerning the accounts, I am not sure that I want to discuss in detail the position of any individual college.
3377.
The Chairperson:We could go into closed session.
3378.
Dr Davison:If you wished, we could bring our accountant to go through the accounts on a general basis. It is a complex area. I would wish that to be inclosed session, if possible, because individual cases wouldbe discussed, and it is not fair to do that in open session.
3379.
We have moved very quickly in Northern Ireland - unlike in the rest of the UK - to operating the funding mechanism in the same way across the whole sector. Prior to incorporation the mechanism operated differently across the five board areas from a different base. The base and funding mechanisms are now the same across all 17 colleges. The differences are the diversity of provision and the size. Those are factors which play into whether one college picks up more resources than another. One of the two colleges you mentioned is much bigger than average, and the other is much smaller. One of them has a peculiar mix of provision which is unlike most of the others. There are both general and specific reasons in play.
3380.
Mrs C Bell:When the Education and Training Inspectorate carries out inspections, we depend on it to find out about staff morale and staffing, because it gets close to the staff and to what is happening. We are conscious that pay for further education lecturers has fallen behind those in the school sector, and we are aware that the unions and management are discussing a pay increase. They, and we, want to link that increaseto performance because we want to continue to promotea professional body. Our lecturers are professional, and until this year ours was the only part of the United Kingdom whose lecturers were professionally trainedthrough the University of Ulster. That training has gonea long way to promote the profession, and we continuallylook at the needs of the colleges and the lecturers.
3381.
We need to look quickly at professional training for part-time staff so that it is not just full-time staff who benefit. The pay negotiations are going on at the moment, and we hope that there will be an early settlement to report.
3382.
The Chairperson:Thank you very much, and thank you for the written brief. That was extremely useful. We have a lot to reflect on, and that will be important in our overall considerations. We aim to complete that by the autumn.
